I have to admit, the job search has not gone great so far this year... Am I the only one who's not looking forward to visiting with (well-meaning!) family for Thanksgiving and having to hear "How's the job hunt going?" or "Haven't you heard anything yet?"
No kidding. I have a family wedding to attend in December and I'm dreading explaining the market over and over again.
I've also gotten really tired of defending some of the cities I've interviewed in. "Why would you want to live there"? Other than people in my dept and my few closest friends, I've stopped talking about it to people.
I am lucky that my family is supportive and realizes how hard all of this is, but it is hard to say no, I haven't found a job yet or that I have not even had an interview yet.
Related to this, I wanted ask how closely you all are applying to the stated subfield of the position. Hiring in my two subfield areas is SLOW this year and I am only sending out 18 applications (thus far) including a couple of visiting posiitions. Do you know stories of people hired for a completely different subfield other than the one(s) listed in the description? I'm wondering how much effort, time, and money I should spend applying to positions not related at all to my specializations. Thanks!
what I dread is having to once again explain the mechanics of the academic job market - that this isn't like in high school when you would go "hey, I'd like to work at Dairy Queen" and go fill out an application and be hired, instead you have to basically wait for someone to post a "help wanted" sign in the window and want someone with your very specific skill set. For whatever reason my family doesn't get this - they say things like, why aren't you applying at University X, and I have to explain that University X isn't hiring or isn't hiring a sociologist who does what I do. I also feel like I'll need to explain that even though I sent out nearly 40 applications and haven't had a single interview, this does not make me a total loser. Oh, there's no place like home for the holidays... ~Felix~
I sent out around 60 applications. My advisors' said apply to anything that you make a claim to. Like I do quantitative work, but it's not a specialty, but I could teach it at the grad level, so my advisor said apply to those schools too. Just anything that you can make a claim to doing apply for. And don't get so down on the job search, it does suck, but remember the post-docs are coming up soon, they typically come after the hiring of faculty and then as a post-doc you can publish a lot there.
By my last count, I had mailed 55 applications, which made me feel a bit like Charlotte sending her offspring out into the world. Hopefully, this enterprise won't lead to my demise! I'm applying for Sociology, Women's Studies, and interdisciplinary gigs. I'm ready not to be a student any longer.
So, I just got my first rejection letter today (from Connecticut College) and I have to say, I feel fine. And, a large part of why I feel fine is that through reading the blog the past several weeks, I know it's not really about me. (I also know that this year is more of a trial run and I'll be better off next year). So, thanks. And good luck to those who didn't get a rejection letter from Connecticut-- maybe this will be your chance!
60 because I am an org/gender/inequality person, so I also applied to schools that were looking for sociologist's in b-schools. My advisor told me just don't limit yourself and think that I can only apply to gender jobs. ~cali~
I am wondering if I should hold off for next year's market or get a job I don't like (if I get one at all). How marketable can a candidate be beyond his seventh year?
From what I can tell, nobody pays attention to long you've been in graduate school. The question about next year is: what do you have "in the pipe" so to speak? Will you have an additional publication(s) next year? A book contract? Degree in hand? If you're likely to look the same (at least on paper) next year, what are you waiting for? If you have something great (e.g., a forthcoming ASR) next year, you might want to hold off.
The other part of your question gets at: is it easier to move to a good job (a job you REALLY want) from 1)old grad student; 2)post-doc; 3)assistant prof at a less desirable place. I'm getting a lot of conflicting advice about this - mostly from 2 profs who moved from a small teaching school to my university (R1, top 10) several years into their careers and are telling me that I DON'T want to do that. They all think I should do a post-doc. On the other hand, they both managed to move into the R1 by publishing in great journals while carrying at least a 3/3 teaching load at a small school w/ limited resources. So they provide models for such upward mobility, though they advise against their own route.
When I look around me, though, If you do really good work, you're unlikely to get STUCK anywhere.
RE: Marketable beyond the 7th year. I have been told that a post-doc is the best way to go because you publish like crazy while doing the post-doc, but I have also been told that schools don't look at how long you have in grad school, they look at your pubs and how good your dissertation is.
I spent 8 years in grad school, did not do well on the market during my 8th year without my degree in hand (and without publications... so no surprise). Now I have a sucky 4-4 load and still no publications, but with degree in hand I'm apparently looking ok, and I've had 2 interviews so far. Interestingly, the chair of the search at school 1 told me that there were applicants with fancy postdocs who didn't make their short lists.
So I think the sad truth is there isn't a hard-and-fast rule. A postdoc is fabulous, if you actually publish a lot during it - which is harder than it seems, given the time from submission to acceptance to publication. If you do a postdoc and don't get a lot of pubs, it's like a terrible stain: "this person didn't get pubs during a postdoc?! Then they certainly won't be productive while also teaching!" I almost feel I got a pass for not having pubs because I'm teaching so much this year.
I don't think anyone cares how long you were in grad school - my two cents.
Regarding #s of apps - I applied to dozens of schools - anything that sounded remotely like a fit for me - lots of places seem to have open searches.
How do you get your references to write 60 letters of support? Aren't letters supposed to be (at least minimally) tailored to the job? That would mean that references would have to tinker with letters over and over again. And that's just for you. I'm feeling guilty for asking for a dozen or so!
Also, one of my references has shown me her letter, the others have not. Makes me concerned with those who haven't shared it with me. Anyone else? Thoughts?
In my dept (top 20 school), they create one letter and leave the heading and address off. The administrative asst. fills in that stuff, prints it, has the professors sign, then she mails them all out. Not all schools do this. While I don't feel as bad about asking for more letters (50 and counting) except for the poor admin asst (there are 15 of us on the market in my dept this year), no, I'm sure they are not tailored to each job.
I had one of my references show me a draft because she wanted to double-check that she was emphasizing what I wanted emphasized. I also have a pretty informal relationship with that reference, so this didn't surprise me. My other two references, however, have not offered to show me what they've written, so yes I'm curious but from what I've heard it's pretty common for you to have no idea what was written on your behalf. I have also applied for about 40 jobs, most of which required letters (some request them later if you make it past the trash can in round 1) and from what I understand while the letters are tailored, once they have a general template it's not a huge deal to send out additional letters (though you should be mindful that you are not the only priority so give them as much time as possible before the due date!) It's kinda like your cover letter - you don't start from scratch with each application, so once you have a version or two written for different types of jobs and different types if institutions, additional letters can be written pretty quickly. ~Felix~
Does anyone have any suggestions for handling the acceptance of a postdoc and a TT job? Maybe my question should be: will schools let new hires "take a year or two off" (defer the position) before even starting so that they can accept a 1- or 2-year postdoc? Does anyone have any experience with or knowledge about this?
I have 2 campus interviews coming up in a couple of weeks, and I anticipate hearing something about a postdoc (movement through the grapevine).
Congrats, Trixie. I can't imagine any scenario in which a school would let a candidate defer a position. They need help now and depts always risk losing the funding for a tenure line if they don't use it. Hope things work out for you!
I know of one person who was offered a prestigious post-doc and also got a TT position at a SLAC. This person was able to negotiate a one-year deferment to take the post-doc basically arguing that the post-doc will provide resources to get a head start on publishing and will ultimately be good for the SLAC. I think it really depends on the school, but it's not a complete long shot!
Trixie, I know/know of 3 people who have negotiated such things. All did this at very top R1 programs - the postdoc positions they negotiated for were prestigious as well. I'd also be interested to know more about negotiating such things. Seems like a school that really wants you may be in a better position to meet this type of request than a better salary or research budget. But Im sure it depends on specific circumstances - like what they need taught and when, who's in charge of the hire, what's the chair like, etc. I also know of people who have gone on leave after 1 year TT to do a good postdoc - also at R1 universities.
Good luck - and let us know what you find out and how your negotiations go!
Trixie, I had that exact situation arise. I was able to negotiate a 2-year deferrment to do the postdoc. I think I probably took a small hit on salary, among various others things, since everything was on the table at once. But it was definitely worth it! And it was worth it to my department, too--although they had to wait for my teaching services they seem very happy because I hit the ground running once I arrived. I know several others (most of whom had the same prestigious postdoc) who did the same thing. If they want you badly enough (we should all be so lucky), I think they might be willing to wait.
Thanks for the wonderful insight! This board has been a great resource and way for me alleviate my anxiety. My biggest surprise so far has been that the job market seems to be moving so quickly. (This is my first year on the market.) My advisor assured me that the earliest I might be interviewing would be in Jan/Feb. She's shocked as well as how things are moving. For the last few years, her advisees have landed jobs at R1s.
Trixie, I know someone at Stony Brook who was able to defer for a year or two to do a postdoc at a prestigiou institution. They were actually very supportive of the postdoc.
Wow, I was wrong on that one. ;-) The few people I asked said they had never heard of such a thing, except in very unusual circumstances. That's good to hear for Trixie's sake. Good luck!
I know someone who was able to negotiate a 1.5-year deferral on a TT position at a R1 university, for a prestigious should-have-been 2-year postdoc at a SLAC. (Do I have my abbreviations right?) So sometimes you can compromise by splitting a year, apparently.
The R1 university wasn't happy, but they allowed it. My friend had a super-sexy topic, so I'm sure that helped!
A number of schools on the wiki have been listed as "offer pending" for awhile now. I've heard that many schools give the candidate 2 weeks to decide when they extend an offer, so I'm a bit surprised to see that some of these positions are not yet "resolved."
Anybody with an offer in hand want to tell us whether or not that is actually true? Fill us in on how long you actually have to make your decision? How to draw it out if you do need more time?
Good point, anon. There could be many dominoes about to fall. I've been told the standard is two weeks and that negotiating for three is common. But I've also heard from a prof that highly desired candidates can tie up a search for weeks (especially if the dept is trying badly to diversify their faculty).
I've had two interviews so far, and they plan to decide the first and second weeks of December, respectively. I have a third next week, but I don't know what their timetable is. I can't wait for this process to be over one way or another. ;-)
Helena, I hope this helps. I'm at an R1. We're probably mid-tier at best, but people who follow the field more closely know that we're underrated. (The department recently emerged from a period of transition and is much stronger now, but reputations tend to lag.) My committee members are well-known in their subfields.
I have two co-authored pubs, both in good specialty/subfield journals; I'm second author on one, third on the other. A sole-authored paper is under review, and I have four encyclopedia entries. I've also presented at least three papers/year for the last three years.
My interviews are/were with an R1, a regional MA program, a good private school, and a SLAC (phone only). All of my campus visits are with departments I interviewed with at ASA. Some feel that they're a waste of time, but I know from my corporate experience that I interview well, and I think they helped my cause.
Based on conversations with committees, my best guess for why I've been fortunate so far is that they appreciate balance (in research, teaching, and internal funding), ambition (how active you've been + future agenda), and a sense that you can contribute right out of the gate. Also, I'm older than the typical grad student and while I thought that might hurt me, people seem to appreciate the maturity that comes with it.
I'll be happy to answer any other questions if it will help. In the meantime, my fingers are crossed for an offer (and for everyone else out here as well!). This is an awful process.
All of the support for those getting interviews is great. But I am one of those folks who have not landed even one campus interview yet, and am wondering how others out there in a similar situation are coping with it. I can't keep my job once I graudate and I have nothing to move to yet; it is very hard not let feelings of depression slow down both my paid/personal work and prevent my negativity from interfering with my personal life. I have very good credentials and have been told that my letters of rec are very good, but nothing is happening. How are others out there coping?
Not very well. Oh, but you're probably looking for actual coping strategies. I don't have any of those (unless you can count alcohol, bitterness, and wallowing in it). I think the only thing that has helped me is a baseless optimism combined with an acceptance of the unpleasantness of the job search and its effects. I keep reminding myself that it is a brutal, mysterious, irrational process in which my future is in the hands of others, and of course I'm going to be depressed and anxious, and my work will probably suffer, and I won't be all that fun to be around. And it probably doesn't have any positive side effects (I won't be a stronger person or a better scholar for having suffered through it, I won't appreciate the job I get - if I get one - any more in the end or feel that it was all worth it, etc.). I also have fantasies about non-academic career options that, even if completely unrealistic, help me to put this in perspective and see myself as having some agency in the matter. In the end, I guess it helps just to know that you're not alone. Hang in there. Don't give up yet.
do not despair! I second what another post said above--apply for temporary positions too. I went out on the market last year, with a not-yet-finished diss, and got phone calls from two pretty good SLAC's for temporary positions (which I declined), and another call from a less known school (in April or May!).
Or maybe you can temporarily (for one year?) get a job completely unrelated to your field or academia, and focus on getting out a pub in the meantime.
BTY, I am in the same position as you--no phone calls, no interviews. However, my department actually seems to have an informal policy of hiring their PhD's for lecturer positions, which is what I've been doing this year too.
Also, there should be another wave (in January, Februray) of job apps (hopefully) coming out. That seems to happen every year.
In the meantime, use this blog for support--whether through venting or finding resources. Many of us feel the same and many of us are willing to provide support.
one tentative strategy: when I felt I couldn't get more depressed and down on myself and my work anymore, I went to talk to a committee member (my chair isn't very useful) and it really helped to be reassured about the quality and importance of my work, as well as about the particularly dismal state of job market this year. Plus, she also provided some advice on how to position myself now, and what to do to make myself more marketable in the future.
Second tentative strategy: It also helped me to go to a conference (specialized to my field), present my work and receive good feedback, in other words, engage in the sociological conversations I care about, that energize me, whether I have a job or not. My conference reminded me again why I do this work and what I care about, which helped me gain some distance (at least temporarily) from the job market.
Two and a half tentative strategy: I am meeting with our departmental chair to chat about strategies on the market (and hoping for some therapeutic effect too, not just professional socialization, lol). I did that at the conference too--talked to some junior and senior faculty in my field. Hearing about their struggles ("My thirties were the hardest time for me, that was the beginning of my career") was actually helpful (emotionally).
Helena's suggestions sound very wise. It's so hard to find positive reinforcement right now, and we really need it sometimes to keep plugging along. It's also easy when we're caught up in this to lose sight of what we love about sociology.
I would find hearing about the early struggles of those who were ultimately successful really therapeutic, too. It sounds like you were fortunate to run across some very kind and sympathetic people at the conference.
It really can be awful at times, though, can't it?
Eve, I'm in the same boat, and as much as I find it helpful to hear from others who are out there interviewing, there is a part of me that is a bit bitter and I know it effects my feelings toward professional/personal matters. It doesn't help that I have a partner who wants to know where the heck we're moving to and I have no response to give! Hang in there, commiserate on this blog and in the "real" world, and I would also advise trying to have a "plan b" of either positioning yourself to postpone graduation and keep your job, or find a 1 year position so you can pay the bills and get geared up to do this all over again next year (I know, even typing that makes me depressed as well!) ~Felix~
Thanks to everyone for sharing their stories and suggestions. I very much appreciate it.
I am in my 12th year of my program and psychologically need to graduate. I am also in my late 30s and need to move on. I would have to delay graduation a whole year to keep my job, and right now that seems worse than losing my job which I am very tired of anyways. My university is very unfriendly to its grad students and I am certain they would not do much of anything to help me out with some sort of position or employment.
I have started applying for temporary positions and post-docs although doing that is depressing after being in school for so long, but I am hoping that finally completing the diss in the next few months will at least give me some sense of closure, if not employment.
I will take your suggestions to heart. I just need a way of getting over that sinking feeling at the end of the day when I still haven't received a phone call.
Hang in there, Eve, there are still many opportunities to come. As for coping strategies, I'll piggyback on Helena's 2-1/2th strategy: when I'm struggling, reading the Chronicle of Higher Ed forums (yes, I know it's "fora") helps. Many people have detailed their struggle as well as the happy endings that came about. It's comforting both in a "misery loves company" way and in knowing that people eventually landed in jobs they like.
Helena, I'm certainly not a career advising expert, so take this for what it's worth. ;-) I interviewed often in my corporate career, and I was also on the other side of the table in hiring people, and this is what I've observed.
The first thing is to remember that there's a performative/self-presentation aspect to it. Too many seem to think it's just a conversation, but it's not: it's a constructed situation where you have a short period of time to make your best impression. Don't feel like you're being dishonest if you prepare and rehearse answers. (One of my profs had never interviewed before she went on the market. She rehearsed every answer multiple time because she was terrified.) The book "Knock 'Em Dead" is aimed at the corporate market, but has some great tips for interviewing.
Another key, I think, is to strike a balance. You want to appear confident, but not cocky; warm and friendly, but not cloying; energetic, but not like a yappy chihuahua you'd get tired of after five minutes; self-assured, but able to admit shortcomings; succinct, but not too brief; smooth, but not too polished. If you are generally an outgoing, engaging person, then some of this might not be difficult. If you tend to be more shy or less confident, then you'll need to rehearse some of this.
You also have to be able to think quickly on your feet -- this is where it helps to prepare in advance for as wide of a range of potential questions as you can possibly think of. At ASA, someone asked me, "You're a white guy, why do you specialize in race?" I never dreamed of being asked that, and I had to come up with an honest, concise answer quickly.
Last, I'd say always be self-reflexive about your performance. I had some interviews experiences early in my career when I realized I came off as too confident or too eager. It took me a long time to realize recognize the social construction of the interview, and to prepare accordingly.
Eve, I hope everyone's comments have made you realize that what you're feeling is perfectly normal. I went on the job market last year too early without having even defended my proposal and kind of got my ears pinned back. I was in a horrible state and it really took me a few months to pull myself out of it. I even lost some friends who didn't like that their usually happy go lucky friend was suddenly more moody and depressed. I wish I had access to a forum like this last year to see that I wasn't alone. Oddly enough, last year's situation has made me a stronger person, more appreciative, etc. as well as a stronger candidate for this year. I had never really "failed" at anything (okay, a few...dozen diets) but never anything academic/work related. I've really learned to be even more confident (if they don't want me, I don't want them). You've probably picked up a lot more skills than you realize in school and if you look hard can find opportunities you may have never thought about. Good luck. I'll be sending good thoughts your way. The Hobo
Kyle -- Since you've interviewed at a few different types of schools, I'm curious to hear which would be your top choice and why (presuming the ideal scenario of having an offer from each!)?
I am getting increasingly depressed too. Once I graduate, I lose my student visa and I have to return to my home country where academia is simply feudal. Back home there are no job advertisements, you get faculty jobs through connections and they would hate me for coming from the States with a shiny new diploma. Plus, it is still hard for women. So here I am working very hard for the last 8 years and I have nothing to show for. Being a foreigner I can't take adjunct positions so I do not even have teaching experience that would help me on the market. I have no campus interviews so far, have sent out over 70 apps, my work was honored by an external research grant and I am from one of the top 15 schools. So what have I done wrong? - I keep asking. One thing I have achieved the last 3 months: burdening my new partner way too much. This is all just to commiserate...
Anon, I'll be happy to answer next week after I've had my next visit.
Hang in there, Blues. The visa issue must really add another level of stress. If this will help, I read at the Chronicle job forum that community college jobs are often advertised mainly at the local level and not in CHE, ASA, etc. Indeed.com is great for this sort of thing -- it searches university sites, local papers, and other search engines. It's also helpful for jobs outside of academia. Good luck!
I certainly hope something blossoms for you soon. Another place to look for jobs (and maybe you and other people already look here) is:
www.higheredjobs.com
It tends to have postings primarily from smaller schools, ones that I rarely see in the ASA listings. Maybe something on that list will fit the bill! Good luck!
I completely understand. I am in a top 5 department and have very good credentials (teaching, publishing, grants, awards) and have had no campus interviews. I do also often wonder what I did wrong.
Everyone tells me its not me, its them (the hiring committees) and I realize that that is mostly true, but it is very difficult to get over. It is still comforting to know that so many of us are feeling the same thing right now as I have recently learned. As others have told me, new positions will appear and they will. Hiring takes place at least until May if not later. Although it is very hard feeling as though your years of hard work and sacrifice will leave you under or unemployed. I am trying yoga to combat these feelings and to help promote inner peace and it is working a little bit. But it doesn't help with obsessing over this whole process every minute of every day.
To The Hobo, thanks for sharing your thoughts and sending good thoughts my way. I will send those around to everyone else as well.
I am in a similar situation. One thing you can do is extend your visa for a year or two through Optional Training, which allows you to work in your field (that would include a temporary teaching position, I am pretty sure). My campus has a center for international scholars and they have all the forms there, and are also able to answer questions. This option would give you more time, and you wouldn't have to deal with the hostile environment at home. -helena
Dear Eve, I turned down the temporary positions on the advice of my advisor, and I'm glad I did. I wasn't done with my diss at the time, and I knew my department would guarantee me a lecturer position in case I couldn't find a job the following year. Plus, my partner is tied to the place we live in right now, so moving on wasn't that urgent.
thanks for your inteviewing suggestions, I added them to my now 8-pg-long file, where I am pasting all kinds of useful thoughts, advice, suggestions I get from our blog!
I do have an additional question though: how can one practice for interviews, when some questions can be unexpected (like the one you mentioned)? what are some pretty standard questions?
Re: Interview practice: Helena, I recommend asking a faculty member role-play with you as a hostile/uninterested interviewer--namely the worst interviewer imaginable. A supportive faculty member recently did this me in preparation for a couple of upcoming interviews, and it helped. I do qualitative research abroad in a couple of countries, and she logically asked me, "What makes you (as an American/_____) suitable for conducting research in ____/_____?" It's a completely understandable question, given the nature of my research, but it still caught me off guard. The trick, she said, was seeming humble about what I still have to learn in these places and being honest about identity politics. I'm not sure if this will work for you, Helena, but it was inestimably helpful for me to imagine being interviewed by a hostile person and learning how I could handle her/him.
On Helena's question about practicing for interviews:
I just found out that I have my first (eek!) on-campus job talk in mid-December, and my advisor has suggested that I do a practice job talk. S/he suggested that I invite a few friendly folks (profs and other grad students), so I've done that and I now have just 4 days to put together the talk. Eeeeek, again!!!
A plea to those of you who have done one of these suckers: any advice?
~Zen (whose amateur knitting is now completely on hold...)
Zen- DEFINATELY practice the job talk. Practice is so important. Make sure that you have all of your visuals/handouts (if any) ready to go and treat the practice session as the real thing. One or two "unfriendly" faculty/students wouldn't hurt either. Good luck!
Congrats, Zen! I had to put together my first job talk in less than a week as well. The practice job talk is a great idea. I was hesitant to do it for faculty because I didn't want to get ripped just a couple days before leaving for the interview. But I was persuaded to do it, and presented for five faculty and a few grad students. It was invaluable -- not only did they ask good questions, but they also discussed many of the different types of personas you might encounter: the crusty old quant guy who doesn't buy qual research, the well-meaning but eccentric prof who asks a rambling question that has nothing to do with your research, etc.
As for the talk itself, I was advised to make it about one specific part of your diss, not an overview. Be energetic -- the dept isn't going to get excited about your research if you aren't. Begin your talk with a brief overview of your interests and how this research fits (it's a good way to sell yourself in a minute or two). And needless to say, practice the hell out of it and time it closely. I ran through mine three or four times before I gave my practice talk, and another six or seven before I gave the real thing.
I'd also suggest finding out what the dept you're interviewing with prefers (if they haven't told you already). At my first interview, I had an hour, but the chair told me he really preferred a tight 30-minute talk with plenty of room for questions. I aimed for 30 and probably went 35 with some asides thrown in. At my next interview, they just want a 15-20 minute talk, so every dept must be different.
Also, be prepared for questions along the lines of "I know that you don't cover X in your research, but can you speculate about how it might affect your findings?" I got a number of these questions, and one of my profs said he got them at nearly every interview.
Zen (and anyone else going on their first visit): search the Chronicle "Careers/The Interview Process" forum for advice. There are some great tips there on job talks, what to take on your trip, dress, what to expect, etc. It's very helpful.
Thanks to all of you, great people! Though I am not called to give a job talk anywhere, I sure have the best possible set of advice!
My department also does practice job talks. But attending real job talks, if your department is hiring, can be very helpful too.
One of the Anon posts mentioned remembering to stay humble, while also confident. I think that's a very important point. I've heard from various grad students how the candidate they liked the most was not the cocky one trying to answer every possible question, but the one who was realistic and humble and acknowledged with grace if they hadn't pondered a question in detail before. Even in informal meetings the cocky vs. humble dichotomy can be decisive. One candidate kept bragging about how fast she got done with her PhD and how her Fulbright was a great deal. Not the best way of connecting with grad students...
Anon, I did qual research in foreign countries too, I am jealous you got an interview and I didn't, but I am rooting for you!
I did a practice run before about 20 faculty and students. It was nerve wrecking, but VERY helpful. I tried to make things just like a real job talk (wore a suit, handouts, etc.). I was reminded to be sure and thank everyone for coming at the beginning and end. I third the comment to be confident (I LOVE my research--you should, too) but humble (You think this could make it better, THANK YOU so much for your interest). Also be sure what the format is: I've only gone on one job talk (so far) and it was presented to an undergrad intro class and the faculty, so I had to be careful how complicated I did things. And I also agree you should ask about length and that you should focus on one interesting part of your dissertation (committees seem to like to hear results, particularly if you're ABD like me--makes you sound like you're on good track.). Also double check the technology (is powerpoint available, etc) The Hobo
I did a practice job talk as well in front of few faculty and graduate students which was helpful. I have also attended a few real job talks given in my department. You definitely want to appear excited (don't appear too overly enthusiastic though) and interested about your research to convey that interest to your audience. Also, if your work is qualitative I think it is a good idea to focus on the interesting stories your research has to tell. Just like any audience, they want to be entertained.
A major criticism of my practice talk was the theoretical detail (previous studies in particular) I had at the start of the talk. I even tried to keep that simple and brief and it still wasn't brief enough.
My least favorite real talks involved the speaker getting bogged down into too much detail about times/dates/laws/policies/long, distracting historical trajectories which distracted from the author's analysis of interesting data. Advice given to me was, tell a good story first to get people interested and then show the significant contributions of the research.
Re: Anon who does research abroad & practice job talk: As usual, I forget to sign my posts with my handle. Anyway, I just finished running through my job talk with faculty and grad students, and I realized that I didn't need the paper notes I had written. I was able to follow my slides and speak extemporaneously about them. I need to reorder my PowerPoint slides. I do ethnographic research in "understudied" countries, and my audience really latched on to the vivid ethnographic data I presented. Eve's point about disliking detours and detail overload is a really important point. You want a tight talk, but not so tight that no one has any questions.
Helena, there are so many SCs that are still making decisions about who to invite; they just might invite people in Jan/Feb. For instance, in my program (a middle-ranked R1), we always bring candidates to campus in Jan. We have never deviated from this plan. I imagine you have several interviews in the pipeline, especially because you have a transnational/comparative agenda. That's more in demand these days.
I have a question. How do you address your teaching within the context of a job talk?
Trixie
P.S. Thanks to everyone for the really helpful information about juggling TT/postdoc offers earlier.
Trixie, thanks so much for your support. Also for your advice on the job talk--your and others' in these past few entries have been very insightful and useful. They even made me excited and inspired to eventually craft my own job talk! Wow!
I'm interested to hear that some folks on this blog think international/transnational research is hot these days. I'm at a top R1 and have not gotten any interviews this year. It's my first time on the job market, so I wasn't expecting to get a job, but I was hoping to make a shortlist or two. I can't help feeling that sociologists are dismissive of qualitative research in the "third world," but hopefully I'm wrong about that and just haven't found the right fit!
What does everyone think about schools with Dec. 1 deadlines...will they invite candidates to campus before or after the holidays? Are January visits more likely?
We should have this discussion over at the interview tips thread but I'd like to react to your opinion as to not to present the entire dissertation but just one part. My committee pushes me to talk about the full scope of my research which covers several countries, several years of qualitative research, plus quant data. (Oh yeah, and I have a single campus interviews with a teaching university.) As I am preparing my job talk, I am not sure which option will make me more attractive.
Anon, if you trust your committee, I'd go with their advice. And I'm less sure about the differences for job talks at R1s and teaching schools.
For my R1 job talk, I compromised a bit: I discussed all of my research questions in brief, but focused on one in the findings. I wanted them to get a sense of the whole project, and my dissertation isn't as easily parsed out into separate presentations as some might be.
I agree with Kyle. For my jobtalks I created a ppt flow chart to show how the piece I was presenting from my diss. fit in with the larger diss and my research agenda in general. It was helpful to me, at least, to get that all straight and remember that my research interests are more than just the tiny part I focused on in my diss!
Thanks to everyone who wrote in with advice for my job talk -- I truly appreciate it!
I've spent the last 3 days furiously writing and crafting my talk, practicing it in front of my dog, and then my partner... It's coming along, and I'm beginning to breathe easier. It definitely helps having everyone's support.
Does anyone have thoughts on how important it is to have your own web page while on the market? My department essentially does nothing web based to highlight or help its students on the market. I don't have one and am considering creating one, but don't know if it is worth the time and energy. Also, what do you put on the page besdies a CV and links to papers? Thanks!
I just found this blog today - it's comforting to know that I'm not the only one having a depressing job market experience this year! I have also gotten no interviews yet. 90% of the schools I applied to are already interviewing, so it doesn't look good. My question is, what do you say to other people in the discipline (but maybe not in your department) when they ask how the job market's going? I recently met a faculty member from a school I applied to and that is still a possibility and got asked this question. I blurted out the truth - "not so well, no interviews so far" - and then regretted it. I don't want to make myself seem like a reject to a school that hasn't made a decision yet! Have any of you come up with a more tactful yet honest answer? Thanks...
Yes, I would also be interested in any feedback on the above question. In a similar vein, how do you ask this question during a campus visit when this is the only interview you have got and you foresee you will be getting? Thanks.
Re: Being asked how the job market is going or if this is your first interview while on an interview.
Truthfully, I think this is an unfair question to ask, particularly during an interview. I've been asked this question also, by facutly in my department and in other departments and during campus interviews. I was asked this question on my first interview this year and felt very uncomfortable. I had had phone interviews up to that point so was able to mention these. The meaning of the question to the asker could be one of two things: either they want to gauge whether they have a shot at you if they want you come or they want to gauge how "hot" you are to others. Either way, it should be an off-limit question unless the asker is asking during a phone conversation in which s/he is offering the job and wants to know if you have any upcoming interviews. It is completely unethical to ask where you have or will be interviewing so if this question comes up, you have every right to refuse to answer it.
One tactful way to deal with the question if it is coming from someone in the field who is not interviewing you at the moment is to focus on other aspects of the job market besides interviews. for example something like, "It seems like a decent year-I found quite a few interesting jobs to apply to in places where I wouldn't mind living." Usually this is enough info to get them off of the subject!
Re answering people's questions about how many interviews you have/where else you're interviewing -- I have been trying saying, somewhat jokingly, oh, I probably shouldn't tell you that! I feel a little uncomfortable doing it, but it has shut people up so far. I am afraid not answering outright, though, is going to make me look like a loser. Because if I had eight interviews wouldn't I want to advertise it? Still, it feels good to say no.
Last week, anon wrote: "Since you've interviewed at a few different types of schools, I'm curious to hear which would be your top choice and why (presuming the ideal scenario of having an offer from each!)?"
I promised I'd answer when I came home from the third visit, so here it is. It's really interesting to think about schools on paper vs. how you experience them. Some things are not as you expected, while others are better. It's information overload.
I'm mentally rating schools on the faculty (size of dept and collegiality), potential for me to grow & succeed, research & teaching support, salary/cost of living, location, dept/school facilities, tenure pressures, and probably a couple other things I'm forgetting. (This is probably a moot point as I be fortunate to get even one offer, and as long as it is reasonable, I'll take it.)
The short answer is that the R1 is my clear favorite -- not simply because it's an R1 (although that helps, and it's not a hyper-competitive R1), but because I loved the people, vibe, facilities, campus, potential, and the location. I would be thrilled beyond belief to work there, though I won't hold my breath.
The regional MA comprehensive and the mid-sized private school are tied, as their pros & cons offset each other (e.g., I prefer one's location, but the other's dept). I would be happy at either place, though they're both a clear second to my first choice.
There's a good chance I'll know something (good or bad) before Xmas. Meanwhile, I'll jump every time the phone rings. ;-) Ugh.
To follow up on my last post, I got an offer from the R1! I'm absolutely thrilled and a little shocked. Off to have a beer. Now it's time to pull for everyone else!
I just finished my second job interview, both at R1 universities and I think both of them were great. At least I had a great time and everyone kept giving me very good feedback. As for advice, I can tell you what I did and I think it worked well: I just was myself and tried to be as honest as possible. People were really receptive to that. Also, keep in mind you are interviewing them too and you want to end up in a place where you think you'll be happy. We are human beings, so work is not the only thing in our lives (even though we tend to forget).
I will try to write in more details about my experiences soon, and will let you know if I get out of the way for the rest of you. Hang in there! This is tough time.
Hi Kyle, Congradulations. But you don't say whether you've accepted the position for the R1. Also, would you mind sharing your general substantive area and methodological focus?
I think the next round of interviews must be beginning now...unlike so many of you, I hadn't heard anything for months (except for rejections) until last week. Yesterday I got 1 campus interview and 3 phone interviews...so I would say to others who haven't heard yet not to get too discouraged!
Hi, Any thoughts on teaching vs. research schools? I have interviews at both, but I'm undecided about where I ideally want to be. Any thoughts to share?
I was undecided until my on-campus interviews. Then I knew, without questions. I think that the schools know too (they've been at this longer than we have), so it might not even be a decision that you have to make.
I think this is ultimately a very personal and therefore subjective choice. As a first advice, I would suggest closely monitoring your reactions during and after your campus interviews there. I have found gut instinct to be my best guide when faced with similar dilemmas. Hope this is helpful.
Thanks, everyone, for the good wishes, they're much appreciated.
To answer the earlier questions, I will accept the position within the next few days. The offer is very solid and I'm just nailing down a few details. My main area is inequality (I don't want to give myself away just yet!) and I do both quantitative and qualitative work.
Congratulations Kyle! I think you've beaten me out for this position (if my instincts are right) I interviewed for too (I'm qualitative and do inequality). But I, too, have happy news to report... an offer of my own. Waiting to hear the details, and haven't yet decided if I'll accept or not. But it's nice to be wanted.
To the person with the query on teaching v. research positions: I strongly believe it really depends what kind of life and what kind of career you want. Do you enjoy teaching or dread it? Do you thrive on research or find it overwhelming? These days even teaching colleges require publications for tenure, but it's generally fewer pubs than a research-oriented position would require. But there's more teaching, no doubt. There are many other tradeoffs as well. I also think you could be someone who might like both types of jobs, and you may want to make your decision on other factors specific to the particular schools.
so I have a question for the women out there in the wiki. What have been your experiences regarding employers and family issues? Has anyone been on the market while pregnant? Has that caused any problems? Or have issues of children or husbands/partners ever come up?
I found out that I came in second to someone who has a Ph.D. in hand and has been an asst. prof for a few years. That's barely consolation. I'm hoping that the first-place winner is trying to bump up her/his salary elsewhere. I'm still interviewing . . .
I talked about work/family issues A LOT on my interviews, and the vibe I got was that it was normal, appropriate, and expected for me to ask and them to tell me the policies... or lack thereof. And in fact, I was slapped in the face with the fact that most of the women academics I've met on the interviews don't have kids... On the up side, the job I didn't get has an abysmal work-family policy, and the job I was just offered has a great one. I know some folks who interviewed while pregnant or breastfeeding and it didn't stand in the way of them getting the jobs. Though certainly it's possible that I didn't get the offer at the place with the bad policy BECAUSE they could tell it was something I cared about. But even if that's true, I'm ok with it b/c it was info I needed to know. And I think my asking made them realize how seriously I was taking the possibility of a job there.
A good friend was on the market last year and had 5 interviews while obviously pregnant. No offers, even though she was at a top 5 program with a fellowship. Good personality too, so it makes me wonder...it worked out well because she's now at an ivy league post doc and had no problem getting a job this time around.
Some of my work deals with work and family issues like this one. There is some interesting research coming out of Cornell (I heard the presentation, no idea if it's published yet) on how perceptions of men and women's job qualifications differ solely by parent status. Likelihood of hiring, salaries offered, and perceptions of competence varied hugely. Interestingly, women without families were viewed as most competent, etc., while women with children viewed least competent.
Anyway, not great news for those of us with families...I have an interview in early Jan., and I will mention my husband (not a spousal hire) but will not mention my infant unless they ask directly.
I hate to say it, but being obviously pregnant could be detrimental; however, it would be a great sign of a supportive environment if you get the job!
I've been on three interviews and have talked about my baby on all three. I figured that if they don't want to offer me the job based on the fact that I'm a mother, then that's not a place that I want to be. However, having said that, I'm starting to wonder if it will negatively impact me on the job market.
I interviewed while 6 mos. pregnant (so, visible!) and didn't find that it posed any problems (got a job). I didn't bring up anything about work/family stuff on the interviews, but all of the places I went brought up the local school system, etc., since it was obvious! I feel like there's plenty of time to bring up this stuff after you get an offer. But, you want to try to suss out the atmosphere while you're there. Do people have kids' artwork on their walls? Do they display photos of their kids? Do they mention the quality of schools, daycare, etc. with you? Ask about the general work schedules of the junior people. Does anybody leave at 3:30 to pick up kids, and how is that perceived? Do they schedule faculty meetings at 5pm? How flexible is the timing of your courses?
I think all of this can be felt out without having to scream I'M A MOMMY/DADDY. Now, this is just my personal preference and YMMV. I'm just cautious about such things (at least until an offer is in hand, at which point--negotiate for everything you can!).
So, I just got an offer a few hours ago. I go to check the wiki, and the school is listed as having made an offer. Does this mean I'm their second pick? I didn't update the wiki, and I sure doubt they did. I can't help but be disappointed.
-#2 I don't see why you should feel disappointed. You did not dream getting the offer. Chances are you are very soon going to see it in writing as well. (Congratulations, by the way!) So, either the wiki is misinformed for whatever reason, the faculty updated the wiki, or they are extending two offers. I suggest you sit back, relax and enjoy this well-deserved moment.
who knows where the wiki info comes from. you may, indeed, have been their first choice. it's hard not to treat the job search like a romance, but i don't think you should feel bad at all about being second choice - especially if you're excited about the position.
my advisor (now tenured and very successful at a top ranked R1) was THIRD choice for his job, and the current chair of our department was also 3rd choice when hired back in the day.
#2--it's also possible that the faculty decided to make the offer a few days ago and were waiting for approval from the Dean--but one of them went ahead and updated the wiki then.
The idea that it's all job candidates and no faculty on that wiki is naive. They are pretty interested in it, too.
along the lines of who's updating. i knew about my dept's (where i'm a student) offers a while ago and updated the wiki then...then found out recently that they just went out longer after i knew...so who knows how/when those things happen. (Hope i didn't send someone into a panic about that job before they got the call! - know that one of them has since accepted.)
I know nobody wants to name names here, but I thought it was funny to know that in previous years' posters have used "nicknames" to id the key players.
I'm writing to propose a different idea. What about an additional list of DEPARTMENTS where we can write an assessment of how they treat applicants, candidates, handle the process, and whether you have good feelings about them because of it.
Example: UMASS, prompt notification. Nicest rejection letter I've ever received. They must be nice people.
MCGILL: Waited forever to send a totally lame rejection email. I never really wanted that job anyhow.
Congrats, Claude! Have you decided if you're going to accept it?
To #2: just to echo what others said, don't feel bad about being the second choice (if that was the case). My advisor was second choice in her current position, but has been fantastic in our dept and is a rising star in her specialty area. All that matters is that you got the offer, so congrats!
Kyle - thanks for the congrats - the first, I think, I got from this blog... but I'm not complaining! :) I am probably going to take the job, though it's not my ideal job for a variety of reasons. It's not like I can say, "I'm not quite sure I like this job, but since I haven't gotten other offers yet would you mind waiting 5 months until all my other options are exhausted?" This is why some schools try to move early and quickly, after all, isn't it? So that we'll take the job offers when they come, well before the rest of the market has settled.... It's not like I can turn down the job without having something else.
All that said, however, there's much that's great about the job and it's a great offer. I'll be negotiating some basics over the next week or so and will likely accept it. But first, I'll call the other place I interviewed (where I think you got a job...)
Oh, and I'll echo the responses to #2 above. It's all so idiosyncratic we can't take it personally if we're not the 1st choice. Few are, but most end up happy and successful at good places even when they're 2nd, 3rd, or 4th on the list. #1's loss is your gain. Revel in it.
And since you (and a few others recently) brought up negotiations, I was wondering if you guys can share negotiation tactics/experiences. For example, and obviously without divulging much about your offer etc., I would be very interested to know how you went about assessing your offer (what are the resources available), and then how did you negotiate, what worked/didn't, and so on and so forth.
Thanks a lot, ME! I'll be happy to share what worked... after negotiating.... I have asked a lot of people for advice (advisors, other profs) and done online searches for info on what/how to negotiate. A friend also provided me with negotiation advice that appeared on the SWS listserve.
I don't know if I can be much help in terms of negotiations because I did very little. My initial offer was generous and a little better than I expected. (The chair is great, a no-nonsense type who seemed to want to be honest up front rather than nickle-and-dime me.) I clarified a few points, but didn't counter-offer. I ran the offer past both of my advisors and they agreed that it was good and not worth fighting over.
That said, here are some points besides salary that are worth inquiring about or haggling over:
- start-up money - moving expenses - course load - try to get the actual courses, as well as the number of preps, put into your deal so you'll have max time to prepare - course reduction: I have a one-course reduction my first semester to help with the transition - travel money: find out what the dept usually offers and see if you can get additional money your first couple years so you don't have to worry about writing proposals - computer, software, peripherals - graduate assistant support
Also, try to find out what money is coming from the college vs. the dept. One of my advisors told me it's generally better to haggle over college money than department money. You don't want to piss off your new colleagues by bogarting valuable dept resources. ;-)
One last note: if you're comfortable with the offer, there's a benefit in accepting quickly rather than waiting the full two or three weeks just to see what else happens. A former chair told me that a quick acceptance makes your chair look good to the dean.
Thank you Claude and Kyle for your negotiating insights. I am in the process of assessing an offer of my own (yeah!!) and while quite thrilled I want to make sure I get the best deal possible without alienating the dept. or the Dean. So I really appreciate all your advice here.
Thanks, anon! Yes, I truly believe this school would be a good match for me. I just want to make sure all the details are ironed out before I sign on the dotted line. Good luck to everyone out there waiting for that email or phone call!
"Offer on the phone". I got an offer last week from one of the schools I visited (and a follow up call this week). I'm really interested in it, but I'm slightly more interested in a second school I gave a talk at. The problem is that the second school's timeline is slow, they won't know till mid january or so who are they pitching an offer to -though they said I was their top choice. The people at the first school haven't offered me the job in paper, they are waiting to do that for a final yes from me. Should I pressure them to give me the offer on paper or take advantage of the informality of the process to wait for School B? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, ZEKE
Zeke, school #1's reluctance to extend an offer in writing is worrisome. I encourage you to ask for the offer in writing (email, fax) and to ask for a month to mull it over. This seems to be standard for some schools, and if they really want you, this shouldn't be too much to ask. I recommend that you contact school #2 to let them know you have an offer in hand. This might speed things up there. Faculty have always stressed to me to get the offer in writing.
My understanding is that it is common to go through negotiations without the offer in writing. (Just to ease up on the paper work on their end.) Once you come to agreeable terms, they mail you the contract. Certainly don't accept an offer that isn't in writing. But I wouldn't expect them to write you two contracts (one before negotiations and one after). At least that's what my mentor has said to me.
Definitely call your other school and tell them that you have an offer and tell them when you have to make a decision by. Also tell them that they are your first choice. If you are their first choice, there's no reason they shouldn't give you an offer. It doesn't take that long to go through formal channels. (Read, that sounds strange to me that you are their top choice but they aren't making an offer. Generally, they can't make you an offer fast enough!)
I got invited for an on-campus interview, scheduled a date but there is no talk of them making (or even paying for) travel arrangements. What's up with that? It is not a sociology department so I wonder if it is done differently in other fields.
Re: Dept. not paying for trip To ascertain for sure whether the dept. will pay, you could go to the dept. and ask, "Is there a college/university-approved travel agency with which I should work make travel arrangements?" This can open the door to a discussion about who is paying for the trip. The CHE is replete with stories of candidates shelling out dough to cover the cost of the interview expenses.
Is it also possible that the dept. hasn't mentioned paying for travel because of the holiday break? They may have wanted to invite you before the break to ensure you weren't booked solid, but they may lack the time now to book the trip.
Good luck! Congrats on getting the campus interview.
Thank you, Trixie. You are right, they may just want to make sure I will be available. I am a bit sad though that sociology departments do not find my research topic exciting enough. I have two on-campus interviews at fairly good places outside sociology but I think of myself as a sociologist foremost and I want to (and I am) contribute to this discipline. Go figure... I knew I should have been a quant inequality person or a criminologist.
It sounds like we're in the same boat. I have applied for positions in 3 disciplines apart from Sociology, and I may be developing a multiple disciplinary personality disorder.
My concern about interviewing in the other disciplines (I've had one interview in one interview and upcoming interviews in the two others) is that if I take a position outside of Sociology, I'll have to work on getting more publications in that particular discipline's journals. I worry that it'll be tough for me to make the transition to a Sociology program, if that's what I want down the line.
Right now, I'd just like a job, and these worries may (soon!)dissipate. If anyone is in a similar position and has words of wisdom, please send them our way.
I was advised that I could return to sociology in the future if I keep publishing in sociology journals. But it is a paradigmatic problem. I know someone who grabbed a top sociology job this year whose project I consider nothing to do with sociology or society per se. I am not envious (too much) but my project has everything to do with sociology but simply beyond the radar of U.S. sociologists. I am only mentioning this because I am afraid I will not get published even if the quality of my work would be magnificent by some heavenly miracle. (it is not right now) It is a real dilemma.
Did you have to shape your job talk for the out-of-soc interviews differently? Good luck!
I think there are a few of us who are on different job markets. Is anyone on the Ethnic Studies job market? The wiki there doesn't seem to be updated as frequently as here or at the other more "traditional" disciplines.
Thanks for your advice. I'll keep sending articles to sociology journals.
I'm curious about why you regard your research as "beyond the radar of U.S. sociologists." Do you do research outside the U.S.? I do, and if that's your situation, I understand what you mean.
For my out-of-soc job talks, I introduce a slightly different theoretical framework, and at the end of the talk, I explain what my research contributes to that particular discipline. Because a particular sociological theory motivates my research query and I'm trained as a sociologist, I refer to this theory, but in an accessible way (minimal jargon). The "meat" of the talk is basically the same.
Yes, I research a non-US region, but I have thrown in a US element as well to make it more attractive here. It did not work as well as I would have thought because the type of actors I study are fairly peripheral in sociology here. Plus I use qualitative methods.
You're not alone in your use of qualitative methods. I used three different qualitative methods for my dissertation data collection.
I also understand your concern about making your research attractive to U.S. sociologists. During a Q&A at a recent job talk, a very nice, well-respected senior sociologist remarked, "I didn't know they had those problems there!" It sounds like you have worked hard to make your work as accessible as possible.
My problem has been that I have never performed an independent, large-scale research project in the U.S., but I'm still expected to be an expert on these issues in the U.S., even though I don't do research here (Talk about having to work hard!) It's part of the U.S.-centric tendency of sociology, which Raka Ray discusses in the most recent edition of _Social Problems_. It also indicates how one's biography affects others' expectations of one's expertise (I'm supposed to be an expert on the U.S. because I am a U.S. citizen.)
There are still a few sociology positions open. Don't rule them out.
Out of curiosity those applying for out of sociology jobs, are they in interdisciplinary fields (i.e. women's studies, ethnic studies etc.) or "traditional" disciplines (i.e. anthropology, political science)?
I apply for interdisciplinary fields though these fields also produce their own PhDs.
Trixie, it seems you have been working pretty hard yourself. I trust you'll get a great job. As for the Q&A, I tend to get really silly questions after my conference presentations, too.
Like Marx, I have applied for jobs in (inter)disciplines that produce their own Ph.D.s and for positions in a field that is at the intersection of several humanities and social sciences fields. I have also applied for area and international studies positions.
Keep on, Marx and other sociologists. This blog has been a useful sounding board for me.
I'm really glad to hear there are other sociologists out there experiencing similar problems with having overseas, interdisciplinary, qualitative research not being seen as properly "sociological." I sometimes get asked, "how is your work sociology and not anthropology?" which I find very frustrating, as the issues I am dealing with are not only central to sociology, but to the contemporary world in general. But the fact that I study a "weird" country makes it easy for people to dismiss my work. I have come to the conclusion that to do better on the job market next year, I need to have a fabulous CV (meaning I have to get some articles accepted ASAP). And, I am also trying to figure out how to frame my dissertation research more in terms of contemporary sociological theory, even if it means I have to drop some of the other interesting theorists I have been using up till now because they are not well enough known in sociology. I really think U.S. sociology needs to get its act together and start taking the rest of the world, and the rest of social science (especially anthropology) far more seriously.
Is it time to give up on this year's job market and start thinking ahead? how sad. I can't figure it out- has the rejection letter idea gone out the window?
Re: Spring market hopes. If these are the top schools that are already interviewing and making decisions, then I am scared to see what is on the bottom.
OK, so I've done a cursory analysis of the wiki lists (note: this presentation should not be taken as reflecting a) the reliability of my counts, b) the accuracy of the information on the wiki, or c) the validity of the USN&WR rankings, which someone was kind enough to post on the old blog):
Of the 50 or so schools listed as having made offers (I may have overcounted since some are listed twice), 23 are ranked in the top 40, and 17 in the top 25. Of the remainder, several are among those ranked 40-50 or are smaller but, in my estimation, highly regarded programs.
Looked at from another direction, of the top-10-ranked departments, 7 have made offers, 1 has invited associates, and 1 has sent rejection letters. Of those ranked 11-25, 10 have made offers and 1 has invited candidates. In the 26-40 category, 6 have made offers, 1 has invited candidates and 1 sent rejections. Of the remaining, I believe few or none have ongoing searches, but I could be wrong.
From this I conclude that a significant portion, though not the majority, of the "early" offerers are "top" schools, for whatever this is worth. The top-ranked schools, including the top 10, are virtually in their entirety early offer-makers.
On a different topic: Well said, ethnographer. We hear a lot about how this kind of work is valued, but in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. Frustrating - I agree.
And finally, a question, concerning the schools that have had their offers declined. There are a few on the wiki listed under "closed searches." Is this because the people who put up the information know that these specific searches have been called off, or just because this is assumed or there was nowhere better to put them? What determines whether a committee will go back to the short list, reopen a search, or decide to give up for the year? Any insights would be appreciated.
On the question of what determines whether committees go back to the long-short list or simply close the search for the year, my sense is that the top R1 departments do the latter. Generally what seems to happen in my department is that they hoped to hire two people, but one fell through for some reason. I could be wrong about this, but I have not heard about people suddenly getting a call from Columbia or UCLA in January.
Columbia/UCLA: While top departments do close their search for the year, no all R1 do that. Schools between the top 20 and the top 50 or so (UCSD, NYU, Virginia), usually open up the list in mid january, when their top candidates have said no and decided to take the offers from the UCLA/Columbia/Harvards of the world. Happy new year, Bibi
Sorry I've been away for a while. Happy New Year all! Here is the info requested (see next post - it's long so I'm putting it in its own post) a friend forwarded to me from the SWS listserve. I also recommend going over what to negotiate for with someone who's recently negotiated a contract (say, an assistant professor you may know) and/or a mentor or advisor. I felt I had a good list of things to work with based on multiple sources.
FYI, I didn't get much of what I asked for, but the initial offer was good. I think I did okay given I've never done this before.
Regarding asking for everything you can v. not pissing off new colleagues: there is a way to straddle that line, I think. I asked for everything, but very politely, and generally took no for an answer... I hope that showed I was thinking it all through and wasn't a pushover, but also that I wasn't too aggressive.
Regarding things in writing early or only after negotiation: I HIGHLY recommend not negotiating UNTIL something is in writing. I was advised with this by every source I checked. Technically an offer isn't an offer until it's in writing. Hypothetically, if negotiations would become contentious or otherwise thorny, they could technically rescind the offer (even if this is rare). I got an offer via phone, then in writing, then I negotiated, now am waiting for revision of offer. I gather this is normal and expected.
This volume of Hey Jane! was co-written by Denise Copelton, chair of the SWS Career Development Committee.
September 29, 2006 HEY JANE!
I've just received a job offer how do I negotiate?
JANE SAYS:
The types of things you can negotiate after a job offer will vary quite a bit depending on the rank, type, and nature of the position as well as on the hiring institution. Our advice will focus on research, teaching and administrative positions within academic institutions. Because administrative positions have some unique negotiating elements to them, we will address them later.
Before we begin, we should note that some institutions simply WILL NOT negotiate. If you find yourself in this situation, you will have to decide whether to accept or decline based on what they've offered. However, the following advice might give you some ideas of the kinds of things you should be sure are clear in the offer.
1) First, never, never, never accept any position without first trying to negotiate. When the offer comes in on the telephone, get a notebook and pen and write down everything that offer includes. Then, tell them you need to think about it and you will call them back in the next day or two. Don't negotiate right away. You need time to formulate a strategy -- to consider what they've already offered and what else you can reasonably ask for and expect to get. So hang up the phone.
2) Find out exactly with whom you need to be negotiating. Most likely it is the Dean (who is probably also the person that called with the offer), but sometimes the department chair acts as a go-between and you forward all requests through him/her. This can be awkward because then your negotiating success really depends on the skills of the chair. But this can also be helpful if you're dealing with a strong chair. Sometimes it is crystal clear who you negotiate with, other times it is not. If it is unclear, it is okay to ask who you should speak with about the terms of the offer.
3) Make a list of everything and anything you want/need to do the job. If you don't ask for it, they probably won't offer it. If you don't ask NOW, you may never have another chance. Your wish list might be extensive. If it isn't, you probably haven't thought about it long enough. There is ALWAYS something else you can request. You might want to include the following in your "wish list":
* Salary -- this will typically be at the top of the list. This is usually what you will want to negotiate for the hardest. * Start-up funds for research * Computer equipment and software-- find out what they are initially offering you in terms of a computer. Sometimes what is offered is woefully inadequate. Find out about processor speed and memory (they may or may not be able to give you specifics). Don't forget about peripherals -- do you want a flat screen monitor? Extra hard drive? Flash drive? Laser printer? Find out what software the school already has that would be available to you and negotiate for anything they don't have that you need/want (SPSS, SAS, qualitative data analysis software, access to datasets -- do they belong to ICPSR? etc.) * Research and/or teaching assistants * Travel money -- for conference presentations and attendance, and for research. * Course reduction -- this is something that institutions that don't have much leeway in the budget can sometimes more readily offer (but they probably won't offer unless you ask). You can ask for a permanent course reduction or a course reduction for the first year or two. * Start date -- it IS sometimes possible to negotiate to start midyear instead of fall semester or to delay the start date for up to a year. * Spousal hires * Office space/lab space and furniture -- if your research involves content analysis of media coverage, you might request a television and cable service; if you analyze film, you might want a DVD and VCR player; if you do historical esearch, you might ask for a microfilm reader, etc. * Books, journal subscriptions, professional association fees, library resources (anything you can get the department or college to pay for is something you don't have to pay for). * Money for publication costs (photo permissions, submission fees, etc.). * Courses -- what courses do they want you to teach? What courses do YOU want to teach? Especially for newer teachers, you want to keep the number of courses you have to prepare each semester to a minimum. So, especially if you were not able to negotiate a course reduction, you might try hard to negotiate teaching multiple sections of the same course. * Teaching schedule -- is this already set or would you have some say for your first semester? How is this worked out for future semesters? * Summer teaching you could ask FOR summer teaching or perhaps to GET OUT of it. * Summer salary -- you might request that internal summer research grants be guaranteed for X number of years. * Health insurance -- may not be negotiable, but it is sometimes possible to negotiate coverage for a domestic partner, or other special circumstance. * Retirement benefits institutions may require a full year or two of employment before they begin to contribute to a retirement plan. It may be possible to negotiate for a reduction in the waiting period. * Moving expenses if you live locally and do not need moving expenses, you might use this to negotiate for something else. * Signing bonus -- while more common outside of academia, people HAVE gotten these when they've asked. Some pay cycles are such that a first pay check may not be issued until a month or more after you begin working. Especially for people fresh out of graduate school, a signing bonus may hold you over until that first pay check arrives. * Time towards tenure -- can time worked elsewhere count towards tenure at the new institution? But also consider if it is wise to count previous time given this institution's tenure requirements. Typically time needs to be negotiated NOW, rather than after you're on campus. * Publications -- will publications count for tenure if they came out before taking this job? Sometimes the answer will be yes, sometimes no - depending on the school. So this may or may not be a negotiable point.
4) Do your research. Ideally, you do this both before and immediately after the interview so you are prepared when you receive the offer. The Chronicle of Higher education and Academe (published by AAUP -- American Association of University Professors) both publish salary reports for specific schools. Find them online and read them so you know what others at this school and at similar schools have been getting in recent years in terms of salary. If the school is unionized, the union will typically publish very specific information on salaries. If that information is available, you can know how high the institution can go with a starting salary before they get into salary compression issues.
5) Rank order your wish list and start your negotiations at the top (again, usually salary). Once you get to the point where you don't think they can or will budge on salary, or if they tell you they will check into it further, then and only then should you move to the next item.
Some strategies for negotiating salary include:
"The initial offer included a starting salary of XX, but I understand that other people with comparable experience have started at YYY."
"As you know, I bring considerable teaching/research/publication experience to this position - X years of full-time teaching. Based on this considerable experience I think a starting salary of XXX would be more appropriate."
6) When you move on to another negotiating point, use previous failed negotiation points to bolster your argument. This recognizes a Dean's limitations in what she or he can offer and provides alternatives.
"I understand that you cannot increase my starting salary beyond XXX, therefore I would like YYY included in my starting package."
"Given my considerable [experience, publication record, etc. - fill in as appropriate] and the limitations you face in raising my starting salary, I would like to see XXX included as well."
7) Ask for a signing bonus only AFTER you've negotiated salary and moving expenses. Sometimes if you can't get moving expenses, you can ask for a signing bonus to make up for it:
"I understand that state regulations prevent you from covering my moving expenses, however, a signing bonus would go a long way to help defray some of the personal costs of moving from a different state."
BUT - always settle salary before even mentioning signing bonuses. It is extremely important to get the salary as high as you can because any pay raises will typically be calculated as a percentage of your salary. Since signing bonuses are not salary, they will not add to your base pay.
8) Talk to other faculty in the department and to the chair to get a sense of what other items you could and should ask for. You might not realize that start-up funds for research are common at the hiring institution. Or you might assume that you will receive a computer and printer and not realize these items need to be negotiated. * * 9) So you've received two offers. Great! Figure out which offer you'd rather accept and then use the second offer to negotiate for a higher offer from your first choice institution. This can be tricky and you need to be up front that you have another attractive offer from school #2, but if the terms are right, you'd prefer to come to school #1. Most Deans will take the bait.
Some other things to consider: * Find out what the raise structure at this institution is like and how it works. Once your salary negotiations are complete, it is helpful to know how to potentially increase that salary in the future. If their raise structure is abysmal, it might be worth taking a third stab at negotiating salary, OR it might lead you to reconsider the offer.
* Don't over look the important question - Do you really want to take the job? If so, then maybe if you don't get everything you ask for in the negotiations it won't matter too much. But just because you know you want to take the job doesn't mean you shouldn't negotiate for a better offer. On the other hand, if you KNOW you don't want the job, maybe you don't want to waste your time or theirs negotiating.
If you have been offered an administrative position, there are some additional things that can be negotiated. In this case, you will be negotiating both for yourself and for the unit (department or college).
1) At the personal level, all of the above mentioned negotiating points apply. In addition, administrators are typically expected to continue to produce scholarly work, yet their time to devote to scholarly pursuits is often quite limited by administrative duties. Negotiate for the resources you need to maintain your scholarly work: research funds, travel funds, research assistance, course reductions, research leave, sabbatical leave, office staff, etc. Aim high in salary negotiation. Call around and see what people at the same kinds of institutions are making and ask for the very top. Some administrative positions are on a 9 month contract, yet expect 12 months of work. With this in mind, you might try to negotiate summer salary.
2) For the unit, hiring an external administrator is the one opportunity for a department or college to increase its resources. This is really important. Ask for a program development fund that significantly increases your operating budget for several years. Also, try to negotiate for as many future new positions as you can. You might also consider negotiating for the unit: additional teaching and research assistants; additional office space; additional travel money; additional funds for something like a colloquium series. You can point out that these things will increase the productivity and visibility of the members of your department/college. Increased visibility along with the ability to bring nationally and internationally renowned speakers to campus will enhance the reputation of the University.
Get everything in writing in your contract. And then, beware, there will always be the caveat "giving funding availability" and be ready to lose some of what you are promised because of that phrase.
Don't be intimidated by the negotiation process. It is expected that you will negotiate and the worst that can happen is they say no; they're not going to rescind the offer. So, good luck and happy negotiating!
CAVEAT to all professional advice: Always check with your departmental colleagues, chair, dean, etc. to find out what the norms and expectations are in your institution. And consult with your professional mentors to determine what is most appropriate in your specific situation.
I hope this helps! Stay tuned for next month's question on commuter relationships.
I'm a new poster here and am interested to know what kinds of starting salaries people are negotiating or hearing about at different types of schools. I'm in the process of negotiating now and wonder what the norm is at R1 schools and smaller public comprehensive teaching universities. Thanks. ~Rae
I think it depends on more than the type of school and rank of job - also a lot on location in the country (NYC v. Nebraska, e.g.). Look at earlier posts suggesting sources for salary information, notably the Chronicle.
Dear 7:18, you have revolutionized this message board by posting some specific and concrete information that is VERY useful. Hopefully others will follow suit. Thank you.
The top offers are at 80k, possibly a little higher. Top R1 schools should start at low to mid 70's and be willing to go up from there if you have more than one offer.
I have heard many places (and not the bottom) just a few years ago were offering high 40s-low 50s, and the top R1s were offering 60s. I think it's gone up about 10 since then across the board, so that now an offer in the 50s is more standard, 60s is very good and more likely in places with higher costs of living, and higher than that would only come in the very top places or for those being hired as associates.
BUT I don't think the rumor mill is the best source for this info. I came right out and asked a few people I know well, who've been hired in the past few years. And I checked the Chronicle for salary information. That's your best, most reliable source for this kind of information, in my opinion.
Thanks for the replies. Claude, of course you're right about it not being the most reliable source of info and I agree that asking people is probably the best way find out. But the other salary sources are generally averages--not really what people are coming out at this year. And surely salaries are good gossip fodder :)
So thanks for the ranges. And just to add to the salary rumor mill: I had offers across the range from $50,000 to $66,000 in a city with exceptionally high cost of living. Ended up accepting R1 offer @ $60,000. ~Rae
I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but the offer you usually receive is for a 9 month contract. I was advised that in this case, it is worth trying to negotiate summer funding without work obligations. Some universities may not have this option (if they don’t have summer courses) but most R1 Universities may have flexibility here where they don’t on the 9 month contract. In my negotiation process this year, I was offered a 9 month salary in the mid-50s at an R1 located in a place with low cost of living. In order to increase my overall yearly salary I negotiated 3 summer ninths (1 summer month for the next three summers). This increased my salary to 60k. At R1s where you may be expected to eventually secure external funding, so it is important to factor in trying to obtain grants to continue to supplement that initial amount, since significant raises rarely come before promotion from assistant to associate professor. I hope this helps.
I've gotten an offer from a state LAC that I'm in the process of negotiating now. They offered high-40s, I countered and they say they can't (won't?) budge (citing union restrictions). However, they're able to be more generous with non-salary items, so it's an acceptable offer for me (for salary and other reasons).
FWIW: According to the ASA data on sociology faculty salaries 2005/2006, the average new Assistant Professor at a private institution is earning $48,702, and the average new Asst. Prof. at a public institution is earning $46,758. (Source: www.asanet.org, look under "Research and Stats" and then "Profession Trend Data" in the Members section) I'm at an R1 as a graduate student, so perhaps my expectations were out of whack. Ah, stratification.
Is anyone in the position of being #2 and waiting for #1 to accept or turn down the position? Does anyone get a sense of how frequently #2s are extended TT offers? For 5 weeks, I've been waiting to see if #1 will turn down or accept the position. Apparently, hu is in the process of renegotiating perquisites and salary. How much longer can this go on? If anyone can shed light on how much longer the agony might last, I'd appreciate it. Being #2 sucks.
oh Trixie, how nice to commiserate! i too am #2, have also been waiting many, many weeks for the #1 to decide. i was told by the chair that this can go on and on all the way through February (sigh!) for positions that were offerred last year in November/December (even longer for positions offerred in January, etc.)
You're absolutely right: being #2 sucks -- and waiting for #1 is sheer agony...
this is just a hunch, but my hypothesis is that relatively few #2s get the job. I don't think the distribution of offers is that skewed--sure, there are a lot of candidates with no offers, but I don't think there are any candidates with 10 offers. Sociology doesn't seem to be that great at recognizing stars, and hiring is also very fragmented by subject matter (as opposed to open searches). I'd bet that the vast majority of candidates take their first offer.
I was #2 at two places and got an offer at one and didn't on the other. My sense is that once the #1 candidate begins serious negotiating, you're less likely to get the job.
1) I was a second choice at an R1 and got an offer -- so it certainly happens -- and I waited about 2 1/2 weeks for #1 to decide.
2) The offer was upper $50s, I negotiated to low 60s. (Lower cost of living area.) A friend got a very similar offer at a similarly ranked school, but she's going to be in a much higher cost-of-living area.
The vignettes do help. When I learned that I was #2, I found out that #1 already has a position somewhere else. (I'm ABD, whereas #2 already has a PhD.) I have other campus and phone interviews lined up, but I really liked this place. The department has been extraordinarily thoughtful in keeping up to date about the process. *Sigh*
I know one place where #1 and #2 turned it down, b/c they did have multiple offers. It happens more than you think. I know a #4 who got a job.
That said, I agree when negotiating begins that the person negotiating will probably end up taking the job. Most don't negotiate without strong intentions of eventually accepting an offer.
Anyone know anything about the Spring job market? I keep hearing that more jobs will open up & that many people do get jobs in the Spring-- is this true?
If an offer is declined by the 1st choice candidate, how soon do search committees extend the offer to the 2nd choice? Any thoughts at all are greatly appreciated! Going a little crazy here...
It depends. Some times they never call the 2nd person. Some times they call it immediatly, at least to inform him/her informally about the status of their candidacy, some times they have to go through internal formalities until they call the 2nd person and that might take anywhere from 48 hours to 2 weeks depending on the school. Have you checked with them at all? How do you know the first candidate declined?
On Sociology "not recognizing its stars" - I am not so sure I agree. For the past 3 years (including 2006-07) at least there have been at least one candidate in each year with upwards of five offers.
In my experience, often departments do not go through the (often contentious) process of choosing a 2nd choice when they choose their 1st choice. Rather, if their 1st choice turns them down, they then have to reconvene everyone and make a decision. So, it could take a while.
That's good to know...anyone else just waiting to hear right now? I've never checked my email/phone/mail so much in my life!
I have no way of knowing if I'm #2 or not, and I doubt the department knows I know their #1 turned them down. However, since my interview, I've updated my cv with a pub. Should I resend it to the chair? Wait to see if they contact me? How would I word that anyway--"just in case, here is an updated cv"? Also, I have another interview scheduled; is that something I should mention?
If you have an updated CV that reflects a significant new publication, I would send it to the chair, but I wouldn't bother informing the chair of your interview. I don't think that will make the process go any faster. If you have an offer -- that's another story. Also, to reiterate what has already been said, just because you haven't heard does not mean that you are out of the running. These search are complex and can often take weeks (or months) to sort through. In the end, it doesn't matter where you rank in the list of candidates, you either are offered the job or not.
Re: being 2nd and notifying other schools about interviews/offers
A while ago, I complained about the agony of being #2. I had written off the possibility that I might be offered the job, and yesterday, that wondrous thing occurred. It has remained my dream job, after I have gone through a few campus interviews and many phone interviews.
I would only notify schools where you've already had an on-campus interview that you have an offer elsewhere only if you really want the job that hasn't been offered. If you like the job you've currently been offered and wouldn't accept the second position under any circumstances, then what's the point in telling the second place about the offer? Getting into a bidding war may unnecessarily aggravate your future colleagues. I'm in this position, and there's no way I would accept the second job, even though it's the same type of appointment and similarly ranked R1.
Trixie
P.S. Where's Marx? I wonder how things have turned out for hu with respect to the whole interviewing for out-of-soc jobs.
Trixie, you give me hope! This is my dream job as well. Congrats on your new job!! Regarding interviewing for non-soc jobs, I have had on-campus and phone interviews, but no luck in offers yet. I think they are curious as to why I think I fit their positions, but perhaps I'm not so good at answering that question...maybe Marx has had more luck, though!
I am still thinking about sending my cv; I got an email from the chair about a week ago that they had offered the job to someone else but were "very impressed" by my interview. Since s/he has not contacted me again to tell me that person turned them down, it seems weird to email the chair my cv out-of-the-blue.
Anyway, I post on here fairly often, so from now on, I'm signing my posts...
Joint TT appointments: Has taken or contemplated taking a joint TT appointment (Sociology and another discipline like Women's Studies, African American Studies, Latin American Studies)? Do you have any advice on negotiating in this situation?
Marx here... Congrats, Trixie! I recently received an offer from my top choice school (an R1 out-of-soc department) in the middle of an on-campus interview. I decided to tell the interviewing department's chair about it partly to increase my desirability index and partly to try speed up the process. I doubt they would give me a better offer but you never know and I hope to use this as a bargaining chip at both places. This is the only time to be smart about your base salary and related goodies, so you should take leverage of all you have. It is of course easier when you negotiate with the dean and not the department chair, a future colleague. So even though it is completely clear for you that you will not accept your second choice offer if it comes in eventually, why not play around in the limited time frame (cc. 2 weeks) you have? It is important not to seem like a push-over, but without getting into a bidding war. It is a delicate balance and you may be able to go around it by emailing faculty saying how excited you are about the offer.
I am a bit torn because I do see myself in a sociology position in the long-run. Any thoughts on how to negotiate a courtesy appointment with soc? Or is it possible to push for a joint appointment if it was not in the original job ad?
Congrats, Marx!! It's great to read about your good news. In my Sociology program where I'm ABD, faculty meet to approve "secondary" appointments for sociologists in other colleges (i.e. school of medicine, school of international studies, school of public health). Secondary appointments don't require service, and the department doesn't contribute to the faculty member's salary. If you're seeking a secondary (or joint) appointment, it may be a boon for the sociology department, especially if there's a shortage of faculty willing/available to work with grad students. I wouldn't try to push for a joint appointment because you might wind up with a double-the-service scenario (trying to please two masters). I would only pursue/accept a secondary appointment after I had spent some time on campus, getting a sense of how the sociology department there operates. I was offered a joint appointment (an actual 50/50 deal, not the bizarre 49/51 situation). I like being able to publish in two disciplines' journals, instead of limiting myself to sociological venues.
I understand your point, Marx, about not wanting to seem like a pushover. My advisor actually recommended against mentioning the second offer, unless I really was considering accepting the second one. This advice works for me. The offer (including generous start-up package) is very enticing.
Thanks to everyeone who has offered sound advice and shared their wisdom here. For those who are still interviewing: a few places are just beginning to finalize their short lists.
Re: Joint tenure-track appointments: Someone at the place I accepted an offer has such an appointment and it initially appealed to me and I thought I'd try to negotiate the same. But then he explained to me that while it appealed to him intellectually, he is nervous about going through 2 tenure processes and is swamped with 2x the student advising and committee work. I spoke to one of my mentors about it and she warned me against it, for the very same reasons.
Find out about opportunities to teach and advise in a second department, but signing on for a joint appointment has no real benefit for you, and comes with plenty of hassles, headaches, and additional obstacles to tenure.
Claude's right about the potential headache in going through the tenure process twice in two different departments. However, some joint appointments are structured from the beginning such that tenure would be jointly decided. I just wanted to clarify that not all joint appointments work the same. I second Claude's advice.
363 comments:
1 – 200 of 363 Newer› Newest»I have to admit, the job search has not gone great so far this year... Am I the only one who's not looking forward to visiting with (well-meaning!) family for Thanksgiving and having to hear "How's the job hunt going?" or "Haven't you heard anything yet?"
Or, better yet, my favorite--"But honey, Local College X is a perfectly nice place to teach--can't you call them and see if they could hire you?"
Or, "You know, dear, I know Professor M at Local College X--maybe I should call him and see if he knows anyone in the Sociology department!"
Ann
No kidding. I have a family wedding to attend in December and I'm dreading explaining the market over and over again.
I've also gotten really tired of defending some of the cities I've interviewed in. "Why would you want to live there"? Other than people in my dept and my few closest friends, I've stopped talking about it to people.
Kyle
I am lucky that my family is supportive and realizes how hard all of this is, but it is hard to say no, I haven't found a job yet or that I have not even had an interview yet.
Related to this, I wanted ask how closely you all are applying to the stated subfield of the position. Hiring in my two subfield areas is SLOW this year and I am only sending out 18 applications (thus far) including a couple of visiting posiitions. Do you know stories of people hired for a completely different subfield other than the one(s) listed in the description? I'm wondering how much effort, time, and money I should spend applying to positions not related at all to my specializations. Thanks!
what I dread is having to once again explain the mechanics of the academic job market - that this isn't like in high school when you would go "hey, I'd like to work at Dairy Queen" and go fill out an application and be hired, instead you have to basically wait for someone to post a "help wanted" sign in the window and want someone with your very specific skill set. For whatever reason my family doesn't get this - they say things like, why aren't you applying at University X, and I have to explain that University X isn't hiring or isn't hiring a sociologist who does what I do.
I also feel like I'll need to explain that even though I sent out nearly 40 applications and haven't had a single interview, this does not make me a total loser.
Oh, there's no place like home for the holidays...
~Felix~
I sent out around 60 applications. My advisors' said apply to anything that you make a claim to. Like I do quantitative work, but it's not a specialty, but I could teach it at the grad level, so my advisor said apply to those schools too. Just anything that you can make a claim to doing apply for. And don't get so down on the job search, it does suck, but remember the post-docs are coming up soon, they typically come after the hiring of faculty and then as a post-doc you can publish a lot there.
To the previous poster:
60 applications!?!
Holy cow! How did you find so many jobs that fit your training/areas of expertise?
By my last count, I had mailed 55 applications, which made me feel a bit like Charlotte sending her offspring out into the world. Hopefully, this enterprise won't lead to my demise! I'm applying for Sociology, Women's Studies, and interdisciplinary gigs. I'm ready not to be a student any longer.
Trixie
So, I just got my first rejection letter today (from Connecticut College) and I have to say, I feel fine. And, a large part of why I feel fine is that through reading the blog the past several weeks, I know it's not really about me. (I also know that this year is more of a trial run and I'll be better off next year). So, thanks. And good luck to those who didn't get a rejection letter from Connecticut-- maybe this will be your chance!
60 because I am an org/gender/inequality person, so I also applied to schools that were looking for sociologist's in b-schools.
My advisor told me just don't limit yourself and think that I can only apply to gender jobs.
~cali~
I applied to Connecticut College. No rejection letters yet, so I'm expecting one tomorrow. Yikes!!!
George
I am wondering if I should hold off for next year's market or get a job I don't like (if I get one at all). How marketable can a candidate be beyond his seventh year?
Got rejection letter from Connecticut U (Storrs)
I don't understand how Connecticut College can send out rejection letters already given that the job closed on Nov. 15. Good grief!!
re: how marketable beyond 7th year
From what I can tell, nobody pays attention to long you've been in graduate school. The question about next year is: what do you have "in the pipe" so to speak? Will you have an additional publication(s) next year? A book contract? Degree in hand? If you're likely to look the same (at least on paper) next year, what are you waiting for? If you have something great (e.g., a forthcoming ASR) next year, you might want to hold off.
The other part of your question gets at: is it easier to move to a good job (a job you REALLY want) from 1)old grad student; 2)post-doc; 3)assistant prof at a less desirable place. I'm getting a lot of conflicting advice about this - mostly from 2 profs who moved from a small teaching school to my university (R1, top 10) several years into their careers and are telling me that I DON'T want to do that. They all think I should do a post-doc. On the other hand, they both managed to move into the R1 by publishing in great journals while carrying at least a 3/3 teaching load at a small school w/ limited resources. So they provide models for such upward mobility, though they advise against their own route.
When I look around me, though, If you do really good work, you're unlikely to get STUCK anywhere.
In sum....I dunno...anybody else?
RE: Marketable beyond the 7th year.
I have been told that a post-doc is the best way to go because you publish like crazy while doing the post-doc, but I have also been told that schools don't look at how long you have in grad school, they look at your pubs and how good your dissertation is.
I spent 8 years in grad school, did not do well on the market during my 8th year without my degree in hand (and without publications... so no surprise). Now I have a sucky 4-4 load and still no publications, but with degree in hand I'm apparently looking ok, and I've had 2 interviews so far. Interestingly, the chair of the search at school 1 told me that there were applicants with fancy postdocs who didn't make their short lists.
So I think the sad truth is there isn't a hard-and-fast rule. A postdoc is fabulous, if you actually publish a lot during it - which is harder than it seems, given the time from submission to acceptance to publication. If you do a postdoc and don't get a lot of pubs, it's like a terrible stain: "this person didn't get pubs during a postdoc?! Then they certainly won't be productive while also teaching!" I almost feel I got a pass for not having pubs because I'm teaching so much this year.
I don't think anyone cares how long you were in grad school - my two cents.
Regarding #s of apps - I applied to dozens of schools - anything that sounded remotely like a fit for me - lots of places seem to have open searches.
Claude
RE: Marketable beyond the 7th year.
Thanks for the advice. I would love to have a post-doc but I fear there is not much out there for non-quants
RE: Non quant post-docs
Let's get a list going on the other board. I know of a few off the top of my head: Rice, Princeton (not OPR, but others), University of Minnesota
This is an excellent idea. I started a post-doc thread on this board if you wish to use it.
-ABD
Does anyone know what's happening at Montclair State University or Georgia State University?
I know Montclair St. did phone interviews some time ago, but I don't know if they had on-campus interviews or made an offer.
How do you get your references to write 60 letters of support? Aren't letters supposed to be (at least minimally) tailored to the job? That would mean that references would have to tinker with letters over and over again. And that's just for you. I'm feeling guilty for asking for a dozen or so!
Also, one of my references has shown me her letter, the others have not. Makes me concerned with those who haven't shared it with me. Anyone else? Thoughts?
In my dept (top 20 school), they create one letter and leave the heading and address off. The administrative asst. fills in that stuff, prints it, has the professors sign, then she mails them all out. Not all schools do this. While I don't feel as bad about asking for more letters (50 and counting) except for the poor admin asst (there are 15 of us on the market in my dept this year), no, I'm sure they are not tailored to each job.
re: showing reference letters
I had one of my references show me a draft because she wanted to double-check that she was emphasizing what I wanted emphasized. I also have a pretty informal relationship with that reference, so this didn't surprise me. My other two references, however, have not offered to show me what they've written, so yes I'm curious but from what I've heard it's pretty common for you to have no idea what was written on your behalf.
I have also applied for about 40 jobs, most of which required letters (some request them later if you make it past the trash can in round 1) and from what I understand while the letters are tailored, once they have a general template it's not a huge deal to send out additional letters (though you should be mindful that you are not the only priority so give them as much time as possible before the due date!) It's kinda like your cover letter - you don't start from scratch with each application, so once you have a version or two written for different types of jobs and different types if institutions, additional letters can be written pretty quickly.
~Felix~
Does anyone have any suggestions for handling the acceptance of a postdoc and a TT job? Maybe my question should be: will schools let new hires "take a year or two off" (defer the position) before even starting so that they can accept a 1- or 2-year postdoc? Does anyone have any experience with or knowledge about this?
I have 2 campus interviews coming up in a couple of weeks, and I anticipate hearing something about a postdoc (movement through the grapevine).
Trixie
Trixie-
Congrats on the interviews. Good Luck.
-MO
Congrats, Trixie. I can't imagine any scenario in which a school would let a candidate defer a position. They need help now and depts always risk losing the funding for a tenure line if they don't use it. Hope things work out for you!
Kyle
Trixie-
I know of one person who was offered a prestigious post-doc and also got a TT position at a SLAC. This person was able to negotiate a one-year deferment to take the post-doc basically arguing that the post-doc will provide resources to get a head start on publishing and will ultimately be good for the SLAC. I think it really depends on the school, but it's not a complete long shot!
Trixie, I know/know of 3 people who have negotiated such things. All did this at very top R1 programs - the postdoc positions they negotiated for were prestigious as well. I'd also be interested to know more about negotiating such things. Seems like a school that really wants you may be in a better position to meet this type of request than a better salary or research budget. But Im sure it depends on specific circumstances - like what they need taught and when, who's in charge of the hire, what's the chair like, etc. I also know of people who have gone on leave after 1 year TT to do a good postdoc - also at R1 universities.
Good luck - and let us know what you find out and how your negotiations go!
Trixie, I had that exact situation arise. I was able to negotiate a 2-year deferrment to do the postdoc. I think I probably took a small hit on salary, among various others things, since everything was on the table at once. But it was definitely worth it! And it was worth it to my department, too--although they had to wait for my teaching services they seem very happy because I hit the ground running once I arrived. I know several others (most of whom had the same prestigious postdoc) who did the same thing. If they want you badly enough (we should all be so lucky), I think they might be willing to wait.
Ann
Thanks for the wonderful insight! This board has been a great resource and way for me alleviate my anxiety. My biggest surprise so far has been that the job market seems to be moving so quickly. (This is my first year on the market.) My advisor assured me that the earliest I might be interviewing would be in Jan/Feb. She's shocked as well as how things are moving. For the last few years, her advisees have landed jobs at R1s.
Trixie, I know someone at Stony Brook who was able to defer for a year or two to do a postdoc at a prestigiou institution. They were actually very supportive of the postdoc.
Wow, I was wrong on that one. ;-) The few people I asked said they had never heard of such a thing, except in very unusual circumstances. That's good to hear for Trixie's sake. Good luck!
Kyle
I know someone who was able to negotiate a 1.5-year deferral on a TT position at a R1 university, for a prestigious should-have-been 2-year postdoc at a SLAC. (Do I have my abbreviations right?) So sometimes you can compromise by splitting a year, apparently.
The R1 university wasn't happy, but they allowed it. My friend had a super-sexy topic, so I'm sure that helped!
A number of schools on the wiki have been listed as "offer pending" for awhile now. I've heard that many schools give the candidate 2 weeks to decide when they extend an offer, so I'm a bit surprised to see that some of these positions are not yet "resolved."
Anybody with an offer in hand want to tell us whether or not that is actually true? Fill us in on how long you actually have to make your decision? How to draw it out if you do need more time?
Good point, anon. There could be many dominoes about to fall. I've been told the standard is two weeks and that negotiating for three is common. But I've also heard from a prof that highly desired candidates can tie up a search for weeks (especially if the dept is trying badly to diversify their faculty).
I've had two interviews so far, and they plan to decide the first and second weeks of December, respectively. I have a third next week, but I don't know what their timetable is. I can't wait for this process to be over one way or another. ;-)
Kyle
Good luck on your next interview, Kyle.
~MO
Kyle,
do you mind sharing how many and kind of pubs you have and whether you are from an R-1?
helena
Thanks, MO!
Helena, I hope this helps. I'm at an R1. We're probably mid-tier at best, but people who follow the field more closely know that we're underrated. (The department recently emerged from a period of transition and is much stronger now, but reputations tend to lag.) My committee members are well-known in their subfields.
I have two co-authored pubs, both in good specialty/subfield journals; I'm second author on one, third on the other. A sole-authored paper is under review, and I have four encyclopedia entries. I've also presented at least three papers/year for the last three years.
My interviews are/were with an R1, a regional MA program, a good private school, and a SLAC (phone only). All of my campus visits are with departments I interviewed with at ASA. Some feel that they're a waste of time, but I know from my corporate experience that I interview well, and I think they helped my cause.
Based on conversations with committees, my best guess for why I've been fortunate so far is that they appreciate balance (in research, teaching, and internal funding), ambition (how active you've been + future agenda), and a sense that you can contribute right out of the gate. Also, I'm older than the typical grad student and while I thought that might hurt me, people seem to appreciate the maturity that comes with it.
I'll be happy to answer any other questions if it will help. In the meantime, my fingers are crossed for an offer (and for everyone else out here as well!). This is an awful process.
Whoops, forgot to sign the one above.
Kyle
All of the support for those getting interviews is great. But I am one of those folks who have not landed even one campus interview yet, and am wondering how others out there in a similar situation are coping with it. I can't keep my job once I graudate and I have nothing to move to yet; it is very hard not let feelings of depression slow down both my paid/personal work and prevent my negativity from interfering with my personal life. I have very good credentials and have been told that my letters of rec are very good, but nothing is happening. How are others out there coping?
-Eve
Eve is there anyway you can prolong graduating for another semester that way you could keep your job if nothing comes up?
Also, have you looked into the adjunct or 1yr positions? I expect more and more of those to be coming out soon.
Hang in there... there are still lots of schools that haven't made decisions yet!
Eve,
Not very well. Oh, but you're probably looking for actual coping strategies. I don't have any of those (unless you can count alcohol, bitterness, and wallowing in it). I think the only thing that has helped me is a baseless optimism combined with an acceptance of the unpleasantness of the job search and its effects. I keep reminding myself that it is a brutal, mysterious, irrational process in which my future is in the hands of others, and of course I'm going to be depressed and anxious, and my work will probably suffer, and I won't be all that fun to be around. And it probably doesn't have any positive side effects (I won't be a stronger person or a better scholar for having suffered through it, I won't appreciate the job I get - if I get one - any more in the end or feel that it was all worth it, etc.). I also have fantasies about non-academic career options that, even if completely unrealistic, help me to put this in perspective and see myself as having some agency in the matter. In the end, I guess it helps just to know that you're not alone. Hang in there. Don't give up yet.
Eve,
do not despair! I second what another post said above--apply for temporary positions too. I went out on the market last year, with a not-yet-finished diss, and got phone calls from two pretty good SLAC's for temporary positions (which I declined), and another call from a less known school (in April or May!).
Or maybe you can temporarily (for one year?) get a job completely unrelated to your field or academia, and focus on getting out a pub in the meantime.
BTY, I am in the same position as you--no phone calls, no interviews. However, my department actually seems to have an informal policy of hiring their PhD's for lecturer positions, which is what I've been doing this year too.
Also, there should be another wave (in January, Februray) of job apps (hopefully) coming out. That seems to happen every year.
In the meantime, use this blog for support--whether through venting or finding resources. Many of us feel the same and many of us are willing to provide support.
helena
Eve,
one tentative strategy: when I felt I couldn't get more depressed and down on myself and my work anymore, I went to talk to a committee member (my chair isn't very useful) and it really helped to be reassured about the quality and importance of my work, as well as about the particularly dismal state of job market this year. Plus, she also provided some advice on how to position myself now, and what to do to make myself more marketable in the future.
Second tentative strategy: It also helped me to go to a conference (specialized to my field), present my work and receive good feedback, in other words, engage in the sociological conversations I care about, that energize me, whether I have a job or not. My conference reminded me again why I do this work and what I care about, which helped me gain some distance (at least temporarily) from the job market.
Two and a half tentative strategy: I am meeting with our departmental chair to chat about strategies on the market (and hoping for some therapeutic effect too, not just professional socialization, lol). I did that at the conference too--talked to some junior and senior faculty in my field. Hearing about their struggles ("My thirties were the hardest time for me, that was the beginning of my career") was actually helpful (emotionally).
helena
Kyle, thanks!
Do you mind sharing your thoughts on what makes you good at interviewing?
helena
Don't lose heart, Eve!
Helena's suggestions sound very wise. It's so hard to find positive reinforcement right now, and we really need it sometimes to keep plugging along. It's also easy when we're caught up in this to lose sight of what we love about sociology.
I would find hearing about the early struggles of those who were ultimately successful really therapeutic, too. It sounds like you were fortunate to run across some very kind and sympathetic people at the conference.
It really can be awful at times, though, can't it?
Mills
Eve, I'm in the same boat, and as much as I find it helpful to hear from others who are out there interviewing, there is a part of me that is a bit bitter and I know it effects my feelings toward professional/personal matters. It doesn't help that I have a partner who wants to know where the heck we're moving to and I have no response to give! Hang in there, commiserate on this blog and in the "real" world, and I would also advise trying to have a "plan b" of either positioning yourself to postpone graduation and keep your job, or find a 1 year position so you can pay the bills and get geared up to do this all over again next year (I know, even typing that makes me depressed as well!)
~Felix~
Thanks to everyone for sharing their stories and suggestions. I very much appreciate it.
I am in my 12th year of my program and psychologically need to graduate. I am also in my late 30s and need to move on. I would have to delay graduation a whole year to keep my job, and right now that seems worse than losing my job which I am very tired of anyways. My university is very unfriendly to its grad students and I am certain they would not do much of anything to help me out with some sort of position or employment.
I have started applying for temporary positions and post-docs although doing that is depressing after being in school for so long, but I am hoping that finally completing the diss in the next few months will at least give me some sense of closure, if not employment.
I will take your suggestions to heart. I just need a way of getting over that sinking feeling at the end of the day when I still haven't received a phone call.
Thanks again!
Eve
Hang in there, Eve, there are still many opportunities to come. As for coping strategies, I'll piggyback on Helena's 2-1/2th strategy: when I'm struggling, reading the Chronicle of Higher Ed forums (yes, I know it's "fora") helps. Many people have detailed their struggle as well as the happy endings that came about. It's comforting both in a "misery loves company" way and in knowing that people eventually landed in jobs they like.
Kyle
Helena, I'm certainly not a career advising expert, so take this for what it's worth. ;-) I interviewed often in my corporate career, and I was also on the other side of the table in hiring people, and this is what I've observed.
The first thing is to remember that there's a performative/self-presentation aspect to it. Too many seem to think it's just a conversation, but it's not: it's a constructed situation where you have a short period of time to make your best impression. Don't feel like you're being dishonest if you prepare and rehearse answers. (One of my profs had never interviewed before she went on the market. She rehearsed every answer multiple time because she was terrified.) The book "Knock 'Em Dead" is aimed at the corporate market, but has some great tips for interviewing.
Another key, I think, is to strike a balance. You want to appear confident, but not cocky; warm and friendly, but not cloying; energetic, but not like a yappy chihuahua you'd get tired of after five minutes; self-assured, but able to admit shortcomings; succinct, but not too brief; smooth, but not too polished. If you are generally an outgoing, engaging person, then some of this might not be difficult. If you tend to be more shy or less confident, then you'll need to rehearse some of this.
You also have to be able to think quickly on your feet -- this is where it helps to prepare in advance for as wide of a range of potential questions as you can possibly think of. At ASA, someone asked me, "You're a white guy, why do you specialize in race?" I never dreamed of being asked that, and I had to come up with an honest, concise answer quickly.
Last, I'd say always be self-reflexive about your performance. I had some interviews experiences early in my career when I realized I came off as too confident or too eager. It took me a long time to realize recognize the social construction of the interview, and to prepare accordingly.
Hope that makes sense. ;-)
Kyle
Eve,
I hope everyone's comments have made you realize that what you're feeling is perfectly normal. I went on the job market last year too early without having even defended my proposal and kind of got my ears pinned back. I was in a horrible state and it really took me a few months to pull myself out of it. I even lost some friends who didn't like that their usually happy go lucky friend was suddenly more moody and depressed. I wish I had access to a forum like this last year to see that I wasn't alone.
Oddly enough, last year's situation has made me a stronger person, more appreciative, etc. as well as a stronger candidate for this year. I had never really "failed" at anything (okay, a few...dozen diets) but never anything academic/work related. I've really learned to be even more confident (if they don't want me, I don't want them). You've probably picked up a lot more skills than you realize in school and if you look hard can find opportunities you may have never thought about. Good luck. I'll be sending good thoughts your way.
The Hobo
Kyle -- Since you've interviewed at a few different types of schools, I'm curious to hear which would be your top choice and why (presuming the ideal scenario of having an offer from each!)?
Eve,
I am getting increasingly depressed too. Once I graduate, I lose my student visa and I have to return to my home country where academia is simply feudal. Back home there are no job advertisements, you get faculty jobs through connections and they would hate me for coming from the States with a shiny new diploma. Plus, it is still hard for women. So here I am working very hard for the last 8 years and I have nothing to show for. Being a foreigner I can't take adjunct positions so I do not even have teaching experience that would help me on the market. I have no campus interviews so far, have sent out over 70 apps, my work was honored by an external research grant and I am from one of the top 15 schools. So what have I done wrong? - I keep asking. One thing I have achieved the last 3 months: burdening my new partner way too much. This is all just to commiserate...
Blues
Anon, I'll be happy to answer next week after I've had my next visit.
Hang in there, Blues. The visa issue must really add another level of stress. If this will help, I read at the Chronicle job forum that community college jobs are often advertised mainly at the local level and not in CHE, ASA, etc. Indeed.com is great for this sort of thing -- it searches university sites, local papers, and other search engines. It's also helpful for jobs outside of academia. Good luck!
Kyle
Blues-
I certainly hope something blossoms for you soon. Another place to look for jobs (and maybe you and other people already look here) is:
www.higheredjobs.com
It tends to have postings primarily from smaller schools, ones that I rarely see in the ASA listings. Maybe something on that list will fit the bill! Good luck!
Blues,
I completely understand. I am in a top 5 department and have very good credentials (teaching, publishing, grants, awards) and have had no campus interviews. I do also often wonder what I did wrong.
Everyone tells me its not me, its them (the hiring committees) and I realize that that is mostly true, but it is very difficult to get over. It is still comforting to know that so many of us are feeling the same thing right now as I have recently learned. As others have told me, new positions will appear and they will. Hiring takes place at least until May if not later. Although it is very hard feeling as though your years of hard work and sacrifice will leave you under or unemployed. I am trying yoga to combat these feelings and to help promote inner peace and it is working a little bit. But it doesn't help with obsessing over this whole process every minute of every day.
To The Hobo, thanks for sharing your thoughts and sending good thoughts my way. I will send those around to everyone else as well.
Eve
Helena,
Thanks for your suggestions.
I wanted to ask, if you don't mind sharing, why you turned down the temporary positions.
Eve
Blues,
I am in a similar situation. One thing you can do is extend your visa for a year or two through Optional Training, which allows you to work in your field (that would include a temporary teaching position, I am pretty sure). My campus has a center for international scholars and they have all the forms there, and are also able to answer questions. This option would give you more time, and you wouldn't have to deal with the hostile environment at home.
-helena
Dear Eve,
I turned down the temporary positions on the advice of my advisor, and I'm glad I did. I wasn't done with my diss at the time, and I knew my department would guarantee me a lecturer position in case I couldn't find a job the following year. Plus, my partner is tied to the place we live in right now, so moving on wasn't that urgent.
helena
Kyle,
thanks for your inteviewing suggestions, I added them to my now 8-pg-long file, where I am pasting all kinds of useful thoughts, advice, suggestions I get from our blog!
I do have an additional question though: how can one practice for interviews, when some questions can be unexpected (like the one you mentioned)? what are some pretty standard questions?
thanks very much!
-helena
Re: Interview practice: Helena, I recommend asking a faculty member role-play with you as a hostile/uninterested interviewer--namely the worst interviewer imaginable. A supportive faculty member recently did this me in preparation for a couple of upcoming interviews, and it helped. I do qualitative research abroad in a couple of countries, and she logically asked me, "What makes you (as an American/_____) suitable for conducting research in ____/_____?" It's a completely understandable question, given the nature of my research, but it still caught me off guard. The trick, she said, was seeming humble about what I still have to learn in these places and being honest about identity politics. I'm not sure if this will work for you, Helena, but it was inestimably helpful for me to imagine being interviewed by a hostile person and learning how I could handle her/him.
On Helena's question about practicing for interviews:
I just found out that I have my first (eek!) on-campus job talk in mid-December, and my advisor has suggested that I do a practice job talk. S/he suggested that I invite a few friendly folks (profs and other grad students), so I've done that and I now have just 4 days to put together the talk. Eeeeek, again!!!
A plea to those of you who have done one of these suckers: any advice?
~Zen (whose amateur knitting is now completely on hold...)
Thanks, Helena. Unfortunately I already used the OPT option. Total despair.
Blues
Zen-
DEFINATELY practice the job talk. Practice is so important. Make sure that you have all of your visuals/handouts (if any) ready to go and treat the practice session as the real thing. One or two "unfriendly" faculty/students wouldn't hurt either.
Good luck!
Congrats, Zen! I had to put together my first job talk in less than a week as well. The practice job talk is a great idea. I was hesitant to do it for faculty because I didn't want to get ripped just a couple days before leaving for the interview. But I was persuaded to do it, and presented for five faculty and a few grad students. It was invaluable -- not only did they ask good questions, but they also discussed many of the different types of personas you might encounter: the crusty old quant guy who doesn't buy qual research, the well-meaning but eccentric prof who asks a rambling question that has nothing to do with your research, etc.
As for the talk itself, I was advised to make it about one specific part of your diss, not an overview. Be energetic -- the dept isn't going to get excited about your research if you aren't. Begin your talk with a brief overview of your interests and how this research fits (it's a good way to sell yourself in a minute or two). And needless to say, practice the hell out of it and time it closely. I ran through mine three or four times before I gave my practice talk, and another six or seven before I gave the real thing.
I'd also suggest finding out what the dept you're interviewing with prefers (if they haven't told you already). At my first interview, I had an hour, but the chair told me he really preferred a tight 30-minute talk with plenty of room for questions. I aimed for 30 and probably went 35 with some asides thrown in. At my next interview, they just want a 15-20 minute talk, so every dept must be different.
Also, be prepared for questions along the lines of "I know that you don't cover X in your research, but can you speculate about how it might affect your findings?" I got a number of these questions, and one of my profs said he got them at nearly every interview.
Best of luck!
Kyle
Zen (and anyone else going on their first visit): search the Chronicle "Careers/The Interview Process" forum for advice. There are some great tips there on job talks, what to take on your trip, dress, what to expect, etc. It's very helpful.
Kyle
Thanks to all of you, great people! Though I am not called to give a job talk anywhere, I sure have the best possible set of advice!
My department also does practice job talks. But attending real job talks, if your department is hiring, can be very helpful too.
One of the Anon posts mentioned remembering to stay humble, while also confident. I think that's a very important point. I've heard from various grad students how the candidate they liked the most was not the cocky one trying to answer every possible question, but the one who was realistic and humble and acknowledged with grace if they hadn't pondered a question in detail before. Even in informal meetings the cocky vs. humble dichotomy can be decisive. One candidate kept bragging about how fast she got done with her PhD and how her Fulbright was a great deal. Not the best way of connecting with grad students...
Anon, I did qual research in foreign countries too, I am jealous you got an interview and I didn't, but I am rooting for you!
helena
I did a practice run before about 20 faculty and students. It was nerve wrecking, but VERY helpful. I tried to make things just like a real job talk (wore a suit, handouts, etc.). I was reminded to be sure and thank everyone for coming at the beginning and end. I third the comment to be confident (I LOVE my research--you should, too) but humble (You think this could make it better, THANK YOU so much for your interest). Also be sure what the format is: I've only gone on one job talk (so far) and it was presented to an undergrad intro class and the faculty, so I had to be careful how complicated I did things. And I also agree you should ask about length and that you should focus on one interesting part of your dissertation (committees seem to like to hear results, particularly if you're ABD like me--makes you sound like you're on good track.). Also double check the technology (is powerpoint available, etc)
The Hobo
Re: Zen's Practice Job Talk
I did a practice job talk as well in front of few faculty and graduate students which was helpful. I have also attended a few real job talks given in my department. You definitely want to appear excited (don't appear too overly enthusiastic though) and interested about your research to convey that interest to your audience. Also, if your work is qualitative I think it is a good idea to focus on the interesting stories your research has to tell. Just like any audience, they want to be entertained.
A major criticism of my practice talk was the theoretical detail (previous studies in particular) I had at the start of the talk. I even tried to keep that simple and brief and it still wasn't brief enough.
My least favorite real talks involved the speaker getting bogged down into too much detail about times/dates/laws/policies/long, distracting historical trajectories which distracted from the author's analysis of interesting data. Advice given to me was, tell a good story first to get people interested and then show the significant contributions of the research.
Good luck, Zen!
Eve
Re: Anon who does research abroad & practice job talk: As usual, I forget to sign my posts with my handle. Anyway, I just finished running through my job talk with faculty and grad students, and I realized that I didn't need the paper notes I had written. I was able to follow my slides and speak extemporaneously about them. I need to reorder my PowerPoint slides. I do ethnographic research in "understudied" countries, and my audience really latched on to the vivid ethnographic data I presented. Eve's point about disliking detours and detail overload is a really important point. You want a tight talk, but not so tight that no one has any questions.
Helena, there are so many SCs that are still making decisions about who to invite; they just might invite people in Jan/Feb. For instance, in my program (a middle-ranked R1), we always bring candidates to campus in Jan. We have never deviated from this plan. I imagine you have several interviews in the pipeline, especially because you have a transnational/comparative agenda. That's more in demand these days.
I have a question. How do you address your teaching within the context of a job talk?
Trixie
P.S. Thanks to everyone for the really helpful information about juggling TT/postdoc offers earlier.
Trixie,
thanks so much for your support. Also for your advice on the job talk--your and others' in these past few entries have been very insightful and useful. They even made me excited and inspired to eventually craft my own job talk! Wow!
I'm just glad people are posting again. It increases my mania when I don't even have posts on this board to read...sigh.
Hermia
I'm interested to hear that some folks on this blog think international/transnational research is hot these days. I'm at a top R1 and have not gotten any interviews this year. It's my first time on the job market, so I wasn't expecting to get a job, but I was hoping to make a shortlist or two. I can't help feeling that sociologists are dismissive of qualitative research in the "third world," but hopefully I'm wrong about that and just haven't found the right fit!
What does everyone think about schools with Dec. 1 deadlines...will they invite candidates to campus before or after the holidays? Are January visits more likely?
Definitely January visits.
We should have this discussion over at the interview tips thread but I'd like to react to your opinion as to not to present the entire dissertation but just one part. My committee pushes me to talk about the full scope of my research which covers several countries, several years of qualitative research, plus quant data. (Oh yeah, and I have a single campus interviews with a teaching university.) As I am preparing my job talk, I am not sure which option will make me more attractive.
Anon, if you trust your committee, I'd go with their advice. And I'm less sure about the differences for job talks at R1s and teaching schools.
For my R1 job talk, I compromised a bit: I discussed all of my research questions in brief, but focused on one in the findings. I wanted them to get a sense of the whole project, and my dissertation isn't as easily parsed out into separate presentations as some might be.
Good luck!
Kyle
I agree with Kyle. For my jobtalks I created a ppt flow chart to show how the piece I was presenting from my diss. fit in with the larger diss and my research agenda in general. It was helpful to me, at least, to get that all straight and remember that my research interests are more than just the tiny part I focused on in my diss!
Ann
Thanks to everyone who wrote in with advice for my job talk -- I truly appreciate it!
I've spent the last 3 days furiously writing and crafting my talk, practicing it in front of my dog, and then my partner... It's coming along, and I'm beginning to breathe easier. It definitely helps having everyone's support.
You all rock.
:) Zen
Zen,
Good luck. I really think all the practice will pay off.
~MO
Does anyone have thoughts on how important it is to have your own web page while on the market? My department essentially does nothing web based to highlight or help its students on the market. I don't have one and am considering creating one, but don't know if it is worth the time and energy. Also, what do you put on the page besdies a CV and links to papers? Thanks!
Eve
I just found this blog today - it's comforting to know that I'm not the only one having a depressing job market experience this year! I have also gotten no interviews yet. 90% of the schools I applied to are already interviewing, so it doesn't look good. My question is, what do you say to other people in the discipline (but maybe not in your department) when they ask how the job market's going? I recently met a faculty member from a school I applied to and that is still a possibility and got asked this question. I blurted out the truth - "not so well, no interviews so far" - and then regretted it. I don't want to make myself seem like a reject to a school that hasn't made a decision yet! Have any of you come up with a more tactful yet honest answer? Thanks...
Yes, I would also be interested in any feedback on the above question. In a similar vein, how do you ask this question during a campus visit when this is the only interview you have got and you foresee you will be getting? Thanks.
Sorry. I meant to say "how do you ANSWER this question" ...
Re: Being asked how the job market is going or if this is your first interview while on an interview.
Truthfully, I think this is an unfair question to ask, particularly during an interview. I've been asked this question also, by facutly in my department and in other departments and during campus interviews. I was asked this question on my first interview this year and felt very uncomfortable. I had had phone interviews up to that point so was able to mention these. The meaning of the question to the asker could be one of two things: either they want to gauge whether they have a shot at you if they want you come or they want to gauge how "hot" you are to others. Either way, it should be an off-limit question unless the asker is asking during a phone conversation in which s/he is offering the job and wants to know if you have any upcoming interviews.
It is completely unethical to ask where you have or will be interviewing so if this question comes up, you have every right to refuse to answer it.
One tactful way to deal with the question if it is coming from someone in the field who is not interviewing you at the moment is to focus on other aspects of the job market besides interviews. for example something like, "It seems like a decent year-I found quite a few interesting jobs to apply to in places where I wouldn't mind living." Usually this is enough info to get them off of the subject!
Re answering people's questions about how many interviews you have/where else you're interviewing -- I have been trying saying, somewhat jokingly, oh, I probably shouldn't tell you that! I feel a little uncomfortable doing it, but it has shut people up so far. I am afraid not answering outright, though, is going to make me look like a loser. Because if I had eight interviews wouldn't I want to advertise it? Still, it feels good to say no.
Thank you guys! These are all good one-liners. Hopefully, there will be a next time for me so that I can use them!
ME
Last week, anon wrote: "Since you've interviewed at a few different types of schools, I'm curious to hear which would be your top choice and why (presuming the ideal scenario of having an offer from each!)?"
I promised I'd answer when I came home from the third visit, so here it is. It's really interesting to think about schools on paper vs. how you experience them. Some things are not as you expected, while others are better. It's information overload.
I'm mentally rating schools on the faculty (size of dept and collegiality), potential for me to grow & succeed, research & teaching support, salary/cost of living, location, dept/school facilities, tenure pressures, and probably a couple other things I'm forgetting. (This is probably a moot point as I be fortunate to get even one offer, and as long as it is reasonable, I'll take it.)
The short answer is that the R1 is my clear favorite -- not simply because it's an R1 (although that helps, and it's not a hyper-competitive R1), but because I loved the people, vibe, facilities, campus, potential, and the location. I would be thrilled beyond belief to work there, though I won't hold my breath.
The regional MA comprehensive and the mid-sized private school are tied, as their pros & cons offset each other (e.g., I prefer one's location, but the other's dept). I would be happy at either place, though they're both a clear second to my first choice.
There's a good chance I'll know something (good or bad) before Xmas. Meanwhile, I'll jump every time the phone rings. ;-) Ugh.
Kyle
To follow up on my last post, I got an offer from the R1! I'm absolutely thrilled and a little shocked. Off to have a beer. Now it's time to pull for everyone else!
Kyle
Congrats, Kyle!!! Go have that beer. You absolutely deserve it!
ME
Kyle, make sure to update the wiki (if you didn't already), so people who are competing with you know they're out
Congrats Kyle!!
I just finished my second job interview, both at R1 universities and I think both of them were great. At least I had a great time and everyone kept giving me very good feedback.
As for advice, I can tell you what I did and I think it worked well: I just was myself and tried to be as honest as possible. People were really receptive to that. Also, keep in mind you are interviewing them too and you want to end up in a place where you think you'll be happy. We are human beings, so work is not the only thing in our lives (even though we tend to forget).
I will try to write in more details about my experiences soon, and will let you know if I get out of the way for the rest of you. Hang in there! This is tough time.
Hi Kyle,
Congradulations. But you don't say whether you've accepted the position for the R1. Also, would you mind sharing your general substantive area and methodological focus?
CONGRATS, KYLE!
~MO
Go, Kyle, go! Have a beer for me too. I might have one myself though, though for the opposite reason.
helena
I think the next round of interviews must be beginning now...unlike so many of you, I hadn't heard anything for months (except for rejections) until last week. Yesterday I got 1 campus interview and 3 phone interviews...so I would say to others who haven't heard yet not to get too discouraged!
Hi,
Any thoughts on teaching vs. research schools? I have interviews at both, but I'm undecided about where I ideally want to be. Any thoughts to share?
Anyone have any info about Georgia State or Houston?
re: teaching versus research schools
I was undecided until my on-campus interviews. Then I knew, without questions. I think that the schools know too (they've been at this longer than we have), so it might not even be a decision that you have to make.
re: teaching vs research schools
I think this is ultimately a very personal and therefore subjective choice. As a first advice, I would suggest closely monitoring your reactions during and after your campus interviews there. I have found gut instinct to be my best guide when faced with similar dilemmas. Hope this is helpful.
Kyle: CONGRATULATIONS!! That's terrific news, and I hope you're celebrating in style... Woooo-hoooo!!!
:) Zen
Thanks, everyone, for the good wishes, they're much appreciated.
To answer the earlier questions, I will accept the position within the next few days. The offer is very solid and I'm just nailing down a few details. My main area is inequality (I don't want to give myself away just yet!) and I do both quantitative and qualitative work.
Best wishes to everyone,
Kyle
Congratulations Kyle! I think you've beaten me out for this position (if my instincts are right) I interviewed for too (I'm qualitative and do inequality). But I, too, have happy news to report... an offer of my own. Waiting to hear the details, and haven't yet decided if I'll accept or not. But it's nice to be wanted.
To the person with the query on teaching v. research positions: I strongly believe it really depends what kind of life and what kind of career you want. Do you enjoy teaching or dread it? Do you thrive on research or find it overwhelming? These days even teaching colleges require publications for tenure, but it's generally fewer pubs than a research-oriented position would require. But there's more teaching, no doubt. There are many other tradeoffs as well. I also think you could be someone who might like both types of jobs, and you may want to make your decision on other factors specific to the particular schools.
Claude
so I have a question for the women out there in the wiki. What have been your experiences regarding employers and family issues? Has anyone been on the market while pregnant? Has that caused any problems? Or have issues of children or husbands/partners ever come up?
I found out that I came in second to someone who has a Ph.D. in hand and has been an asst. prof for a few years. That's barely consolation. I'm hoping that the first-place winner is trying to bump up her/his salary elsewhere. I'm still interviewing . . .
I talked about work/family issues A LOT on my interviews, and the vibe I got was that it was normal, appropriate, and expected for me to ask and them to tell me the policies... or lack thereof. And in fact, I was slapped in the face with the fact that most of the women academics I've met on the interviews don't have kids... On the up side, the job I didn't get has an abysmal work-family policy, and the job I was just offered has a great one. I know some folks who interviewed while pregnant or breastfeeding and it didn't stand in the way of them getting the jobs. Though certainly it's possible that I didn't get the offer at the place with the bad policy BECAUSE they could tell it was something I cared about. But even if that's true, I'm ok with it b/c it was info I needed to know. And I think my asking made them realize how seriously I was taking the possibility of a job there.
Claude
Re: women and job market:
A good friend was on the market last year and had 5 interviews while obviously pregnant. No offers, even though she was at a top 5 program with a fellowship. Good personality too, so it makes me wonder...it worked out well because she's now at an ivy league post doc and had no problem getting a job this time around.
Some of my work deals with work and family issues like this one. There is some interesting research coming out of Cornell (I heard the presentation, no idea if it's published yet) on how perceptions of men and women's job qualifications differ solely by parent status. Likelihood of hiring, salaries offered, and perceptions of competence varied hugely. Interestingly, women without families were viewed as most competent, etc., while women with children viewed least competent.
Anyway, not great news for those of us with families...I have an interview in early Jan., and I will mention my husband (not a spousal hire) but will not mention my infant unless they ask directly.
I hate to say it, but being obviously pregnant could be detrimental; however, it would be a great sign of a supportive environment if you get the job!
I've been on three interviews and have talked about my baby on all three. I figured that if they don't want to offer me the job based on the fact that I'm a mother, then that's not a place that I want to be. However, having said that, I'm starting to wonder if it will negatively impact me on the job market.
I interviewed while 6 mos. pregnant (so, visible!) and didn't find that it posed any problems (got a job). I didn't bring up anything about work/family stuff on the interviews, but all of the places I went brought up the local school system, etc., since it was obvious! I feel like there's plenty of time to bring up this stuff after you get an offer. But, you want to try to suss out the atmosphere while you're there. Do people have kids' artwork on their walls? Do they display photos of their kids? Do they mention the quality of schools, daycare, etc. with you? Ask about the general work schedules of the junior people. Does anybody leave at 3:30 to pick up kids, and how is that perceived? Do they schedule faculty meetings at 5pm? How flexible is the timing of your courses?
I think all of this can be felt out without having to scream I'M A MOMMY/DADDY. Now, this is just my personal preference and YMMV. I'm just cautious about such things (at least until an offer is in hand, at which point--negotiate for everything you can!).
So, I just got an offer a few hours ago. I go to check the wiki, and the school is listed as having made an offer. Does this mean I'm their second pick? I didn't update the wiki, and I sure doubt they did. I can't help but be disappointed.
-#2
Maybe one of the grad students did?
There are no grad students there, so that option is (unfortunately) out.
-#2
-#2
I don't see why you should feel disappointed. You did not dream getting the offer. Chances are you are very soon going to see it in writing as well. (Congratulations, by the way!) So, either the wiki is misinformed for whatever reason, the faculty updated the wiki, or they are extending two offers. I suggest you sit back, relax and enjoy this well-deserved moment.
#2 - congrats on the offer!
who knows where the wiki info comes from. you may, indeed, have been their first choice. it's hard not to treat the job search like a romance, but i don't think you should feel bad at all about being second choice - especially if you're excited about the position.
my advisor (now tenured and very successful at a top ranked R1) was THIRD choice for his job, and the current chair of our department was also 3rd choice when hired back in the day.
sorry. you get no sympathy from me. :)
- no offer and jealous.
many places are making multiple offers... is the place that made you an offer hiring more than one person?
#2--it's also possible that the faculty decided to make the offer a few days ago and were waiting for approval from the Dean--but one of them went ahead and updated the wiki then.
The idea that it's all job candidates and no faculty on that wiki is naive. They are pretty interested in it, too.
along the lines of who's updating. i knew about my dept's (where i'm a student) offers a while ago and updated the wiki then...then found out recently that they just went out longer after i knew...so who knows how/when those things happen. (Hope i didn't send someone into a panic about that job before they got the call! - know that one of them has since accepted.)
Thanks to Jeremy Freese for actually saying what I'm we're all thinking: JUST LET ME KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. PLEASE?!
http://jeremyfreese.blogspot.com/2006/12/open-letter-to-anyone-who-happens-to.html
I know nobody wants to name names here, but I thought it was funny to know that in previous years' posters have used "nicknames" to id the key players.
I'm writing to propose a different idea. What about an additional list of DEPARTMENTS where we can write an assessment of how they treat applicants, candidates, handle the process, and whether you have good feelings about them because of it.
Example: UMASS, prompt notification. Nicest rejection letter I've ever received. They must be nice people.
MCGILL: Waited forever to send a totally lame rejection email. I never really wanted that job anyhow.
NORTHWESTERN: Worst rejection notification I've ever received. Insulting, actually.
Anybody else game? We need something fun (in relative terms)to do on this website before we all go bonkers.
Congrats, Claude! Have you decided if you're going to accept it?
To #2: just to echo what others said, don't feel bad about being the second choice (if that was the case). My advisor was second choice in her current position, but has been fantastic in our dept and is a rising star in her specialty area. All that matters is that you got the offer, so congrats!
Kyle
Kyle - thanks for the congrats - the first, I think, I got from this blog... but I'm not complaining! :) I am probably going to take the job, though it's not my ideal job for a variety of reasons. It's not like I can say, "I'm not quite sure I like this job, but since I haven't gotten other offers yet would you mind waiting 5 months until all my other options are exhausted?" This is why some schools try to move early and quickly, after all, isn't it? So that we'll take the job offers when they come, well before the rest of the market has settled.... It's not like I can turn down the job without having something else.
All that said, however, there's much that's great about the job and it's a great offer. I'll be negotiating some basics over the next week or so and will likely accept it. But first, I'll call the other place I interviewed (where I think you got a job...)
Oh, and I'll echo the responses to #2 above. It's all so idiosyncratic we can't take it personally if we're not the 1st choice. Few are, but most end up happy and successful at good places even when they're 2nd, 3rd, or 4th on the list. #1's loss is your gain. Revel in it.
Claude
Congrats for me as well, Claude!!
And since you (and a few others recently) brought up negotiations, I was wondering if you guys can share negotiation tactics/experiences. For example, and obviously without divulging much about your offer etc., I would be very interested to know how you went about assessing your offer (what are the resources available), and then how did you negotiate, what worked/didn't, and so on and so forth.
ME
Has anone received a call today to schedule a phone interview? From what school? Thanks.
Thanks a lot, ME! I'll be happy to share what worked... after negotiating.... I have asked a lot of people for advice (advisors, other profs) and done online searches for info on what/how to negotiate. A friend also provided me with negotiation advice that appeared on the SWS listserve.
Claude
congrats claude!
-nick
Congrat's Claude and Kyle and any others with offers in hand.
Claude or others: can you provide the SWS resources or other links to negotiating strategies?
I don't know if I can be much help in terms of negotiations because I did very little. My initial offer was generous and a little better than I expected. (The chair is great, a no-nonsense type who seemed to want to be honest up front rather than nickle-and-dime me.) I clarified a few points, but didn't counter-offer. I ran the offer past both of my advisors and they agreed that it was good and not worth fighting over.
That said, here are some points besides salary that are worth inquiring about or haggling over:
- start-up money
- moving expenses
- course load - try to get the actual courses, as well as the number of preps, put into your deal so you'll have max time to prepare
- course reduction: I have a one-course reduction my first semester to help with the transition
- travel money: find out what the dept usually offers and see if you can get additional money your first couple years so you don't have to worry about writing proposals
- computer, software, peripherals
- graduate assistant support
Also, try to find out what money is coming from the college vs. the dept. One of my advisors told me it's generally better to haggle over college money than department money. You don't want to piss off your new colleagues by bogarting valuable dept resources. ;-)
One last note: if you're comfortable with the offer, there's a benefit in accepting quickly rather than waiting the full two or three weeks just to see what else happens. A former chair told me that a quick acceptance makes your chair look good to the dean.
Good luck!
Kyle
Thank you Claude and Kyle for your negotiating insights. I am in the process of assessing an offer of my own (yeah!!) and while quite thrilled I want to make sure I get the best deal possible without alienating the dept. or the Dean. So I really appreciate all your advice here.
ME
Congrats, ME! That's great news. Are you happy with the school?
Thanks, anon! Yes, I truly believe this school would be a good match for me. I just want to make sure all the details are ironed out before I sign on the dotted line. Good luck to everyone out there waiting for that email or phone call!
ME
ME, that's great to hear. A nice early present for the holidays. ;-)
Kyle (forgot to sign that last one)
"Offer on the phone".
I got an offer last week from one of the schools I visited (and a follow up call this week). I'm really interested in it, but I'm slightly more interested in a second school I gave a talk at. The problem is that the second school's timeline is slow, they won't know till mid january or so who are they pitching an offer to -though they said I was their top choice.
The people at the first school haven't offered me the job in paper, they are waiting to do that for a final yes from me. Should I pressure them to give me the offer on paper or take advantage of the informality of the process to wait for School B?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
ZEKE
Zeke, school #1's reluctance to extend an offer in writing is worrisome. I encourage you to ask for the offer in writing (email, fax) and to ask for a month to mull it over. This seems to be standard for some schools, and if they really want you, this shouldn't be too much to ask. I recommend that you contact school #2 to let them know you have an offer in hand. This might speed things up there. Faculty have always stressed to me to get the offer in writing.
Congrats, by the way!
Trixie
Zeke,
My understanding is that it is common to go through negotiations without the offer in writing. (Just to ease up on the paper work on their end.) Once you come to agreeable terms, they mail you the contract. Certainly don't accept an offer that isn't in writing. But I wouldn't expect them to write you two contracts (one before negotiations and one after). At least that's what my mentor has said to me.
Definitely call your other school and tell them that you have an offer and tell them when you have to make a decision by. Also tell them that they are your first choice. If you are their first choice, there's no reason they shouldn't give you an offer. It doesn't take that long to go through formal channels. (Read, that sounds strange to me that you are their top choice but they aren't making an offer. Generally, they can't make you an offer fast enough!)
I got invited for an on-campus interview, scheduled a date but there is no talk of them making (or even paying for) travel arrangements. What's up with that? It is not a sociology department so I wonder if it is done differently in other fields.
Re: Dept. not paying for trip
To ascertain for sure whether the dept. will pay, you could go to the dept. and ask, "Is there a college/university-approved travel agency with which I should work make travel arrangements?" This can open the door to a discussion about who is paying for the trip. The CHE is replete with stories of candidates shelling out dough to cover the cost of the interview expenses.
Is it also possible that the dept. hasn't mentioned paying for travel because of the holiday break? They may have wanted to invite you before the break to ensure you weren't booked solid, but they may lack the time now to book the trip.
Good luck! Congrats on getting the campus interview.
Trixie
Thank you, Trixie. You are right, they may just want to make sure I will be available. I am a bit sad though that sociology departments do not find my research topic exciting enough. I have two on-campus interviews at fairly good places outside sociology but I think of myself as a sociologist foremost and I want to (and I am) contribute to this discipline. Go figure... I knew I should have been a quant inequality person or a criminologist.
Marx
Marx,
It sounds like we're in the same boat. I have applied for positions in 3 disciplines apart from Sociology, and I may be developing a multiple disciplinary personality disorder.
My concern about interviewing in the other disciplines (I've had one interview in one interview and upcoming interviews in the two others) is that if I take a position outside of Sociology, I'll have to work on getting more publications in that particular discipline's journals. I worry that it'll be tough for me to make the transition to a Sociology program, if that's what I want down the line.
Right now, I'd just like a job, and these worries may (soon!)dissipate. If anyone is in a similar position and has words of wisdom, please send them our way.
Trixie
Trixie,
I was advised that I could return to sociology in the future if I keep publishing in sociology journals. But it is a paradigmatic problem. I know someone who grabbed a top sociology job this year whose project I consider nothing to do with sociology or society per se. I am not envious (too much) but my project has everything to do with sociology but simply beyond the radar of U.S. sociologists. I am only mentioning this because I am afraid I will not get published even if the quality of my work would be magnificent by some heavenly miracle. (it is not right now) It is a real dilemma.
Did you have to shape your job talk for the out-of-soc interviews differently? Good luck!
Marx
I think there are a few of us who are on different job markets. Is anyone on the Ethnic Studies job market? The wiki there doesn't seem to be updated as frequently as here or at the other more "traditional" disciplines.
Marx,
Thanks for your advice. I'll keep sending articles to sociology journals.
I'm curious about why you regard your research as "beyond the radar of U.S. sociologists." Do you do research outside the U.S.? I do, and if that's your situation, I understand what you mean.
For my out-of-soc job talks, I introduce a slightly different theoretical framework, and at the end of the talk, I explain what my research contributes to that particular discipline. Because a particular sociological theory motivates my research query and I'm trained as a sociologist, I refer to this theory, but in an accessible way (minimal jargon). The "meat" of the talk is basically the same.
Good luck to you!
Trixie
Trixie,
Yes, I research a non-US region, but I have thrown in a US element as well to make it more attractive here. It did not work as well as I would have thought because the type of actors I study are fairly peripheral in sociology here. Plus I use qualitative methods.
Marx
And thanks for your advice, Trixie.
Marx
Marx,
You're not alone in your use of qualitative methods. I used three different qualitative methods for my dissertation data collection.
I also understand your concern about making your research attractive to U.S. sociologists. During a Q&A at a recent job talk, a very nice, well-respected senior sociologist remarked, "I didn't know they had those problems there!" It sounds like you have worked hard to make your work as accessible as possible.
My problem has been that I have never performed an independent, large-scale research project in the U.S., but I'm still expected to be an expert on these issues in the U.S., even though I don't do research here (Talk about having to work hard!) It's part of the U.S.-centric tendency of sociology, which Raka Ray discusses in the most recent edition of _Social Problems_. It also indicates how one's biography affects others' expectations of one's expertise (I'm supposed to be an expert on the U.S. because I am a U.S. citizen.)
There are still a few sociology positions open. Don't rule them out.
Trixie
I have not received any rejection letters or any invites- what does this mean?
Out of curiosity those applying for out of sociology jobs, are they in interdisciplinary fields (i.e. women's studies, ethnic studies etc.) or "traditional" disciplines (i.e. anthropology, political science)?
Re: out-of-soc jobs
I apply for interdisciplinary fields though these fields also produce their own PhDs.
Trixie, it seems you have been working pretty hard yourself. I trust you'll get a great job. As for the Q&A, I tend to get really silly questions after my conference presentations, too.
Marx
Re: Out-of-soc jobs
Like Marx, I have applied for jobs in (inter)disciplines that produce their own Ph.D.s and for positions in a field that is at the intersection of several humanities and social sciences fields. I have also applied for area and international studies positions.
Keep on, Marx and other sociologists. This blog has been a useful sounding board for me.
Trixie
I'm really glad to hear there are other sociologists out there experiencing similar problems with having overseas, interdisciplinary, qualitative research not being seen as properly "sociological." I sometimes get asked, "how is your work sociology and not anthropology?" which I find very frustrating, as the issues I am dealing with are not only central to sociology, but to the contemporary world in general. But the fact that I study a "weird" country makes it easy for people to dismiss my work. I have come to the conclusion that to do better on the job market next year, I need to have a fabulous CV (meaning I have to get some articles accepted ASAP). And, I am also trying to figure out how to frame my dissertation research more in terms of contemporary sociological theory, even if it means I have to drop some of the other interesting theorists I have been using up till now because they are not well enough known in sociology. I really think U.S. sociology needs to get its act together and start taking the rest of the world, and the rest of social science (especially anthropology) far more seriously.
Ethnographer, your comments mirror my sentiments.
Trixie
Is it time to give up on this year's job market and start thinking ahead?
how sad. I can't figure it out- has the rejection letter idea gone out the window?
9:58, don't loose heart quite yet. i've heard that there's a spring market that starts up once the top schools and candidates "settle."
Re: Spring market hopes.
If these are the top schools that are already interviewing and making decisions, then I am scared to see what is on the bottom.
OK, so I've done a cursory analysis of the wiki lists (note: this presentation should not be taken as reflecting a) the reliability of my counts, b) the accuracy of the information on the wiki, or c) the validity of the USN&WR rankings, which someone was kind enough to post on the old blog):
Of the 50 or so schools listed as having made offers (I may have overcounted since some are listed twice), 23 are ranked in the top 40, and 17 in the top 25. Of the remainder, several are among those ranked 40-50 or are smaller but, in my estimation, highly regarded programs.
Looked at from another direction, of the top-10-ranked departments, 7 have made offers, 1 has invited associates, and 1 has sent rejection letters. Of those ranked 11-25, 10 have made offers and 1 has invited candidates. In the 26-40 category, 6 have made offers, 1 has invited candidates and 1 sent rejections. Of the remaining, I believe few or none have ongoing searches, but I could be wrong.
From this I conclude that a significant portion, though not the majority, of the "early" offerers are "top" schools, for whatever this is worth. The top-ranked schools, including the top 10, are virtually in their entirety early offer-makers.
On a different topic: Well said, ethnographer. We hear a lot about how this kind of work is valued, but in practice this doesn't seem to be the case. Frustrating - I agree.
And finally, a question, concerning the schools that have had their offers declined. There are a few on the wiki listed under "closed searches." Is this because the people who put up the information know that these specific searches have been called off, or just because this is assumed or there was nowhere better to put them? What determines whether a committee will go back to the short list, reopen a search, or decide to give up for the year? Any insights would be appreciated.
Mills
I posted one of them because I know that the search was called off.
On the question of what determines whether committees go back to the long-short list or simply close the search for the year, my sense is that the top R1 departments do the latter. Generally what seems to happen in my department is that they hoped to hire two people, but one fell through for some reason. I could be wrong about this, but I have not heard about people suddenly getting a call from Columbia or UCLA in January.
Columbia/UCLA:
While top departments do close their search for the year, no all R1 do that. Schools between the top 20 and the top 50 or so (UCSD, NYU, Virginia), usually open up the list in mid january, when their top candidates have said no and decided to take the offers from the UCLA/Columbia/Harvards of the world.
Happy new year,
Bibi
RE: Negotiating
Sorry I've been away for a while. Happy New Year all! Here is the info requested (see next post - it's long so I'm putting it in its own post) a friend forwarded to me from the SWS listserve. I also recommend going over what to negotiate for with someone who's recently negotiated a contract (say, an assistant professor you may know) and/or a mentor or advisor. I felt I had a good list of things to work with based on multiple sources.
FYI, I didn't get much of what I asked for, but the initial offer was good. I think I did okay given I've never done this before.
Regarding asking for everything you can v. not pissing off new colleagues: there is a way to straddle that line, I think. I asked for everything, but very politely, and generally took no for an answer... I hope that showed I was thinking it all through and wasn't a pushover, but also that I wasn't too aggressive.
Regarding things in writing early or only after negotiation: I HIGHLY recommend not negotiating UNTIL something is in writing. I was advised with this by every source I checked. Technically an offer isn't an offer until it's in writing. Hypothetically, if negotiations would become contentious or otherwise thorny, they could technically rescind the offer (even if this is rare). I got an offer via phone, then in writing, then I negotiated, now am waiting for revision of offer.
I gather this is normal and expected.
Claude
This volume of Hey Jane! was co-written by Denise Copelton, chair of the SWS Career Development Committee.
September 29, 2006
HEY JANE!
I've just received a job offer how do I negotiate?
JANE SAYS:
The types of things you can negotiate after a job offer will vary quite a bit depending on the rank, type, and nature of the position as well as on the hiring institution. Our advice will focus on research, teaching and administrative positions within academic institutions. Because administrative positions have some unique negotiating elements to them, we will address them later.
Before we begin, we should note that some institutions simply WILL NOT negotiate. If you find yourself in this situation, you will have to decide whether to accept or decline based on what they've offered. However, the following advice might give you some ideas of the kinds of things you should be sure are clear in the offer.
1) First, never, never, never accept any position without first trying to negotiate. When the offer comes in on the telephone, get a notebook and pen and write down everything that offer includes. Then, tell them you need to think about it and you will call them back in the next day or two. Don't negotiate right away. You need time to formulate a strategy -- to consider what they've already offered and what else you can reasonably ask for and expect to get. So hang up the phone.
2) Find out exactly with whom you need to be negotiating. Most likely it is the Dean (who is probably also the person that called with the offer), but sometimes the department chair acts as a go-between and you forward all requests through him/her. This can be awkward because then your negotiating success really depends on the skills of the chair. But this can also be helpful if you're dealing with a strong chair. Sometimes it is crystal clear who you negotiate with, other times it is not. If it is unclear, it is okay to ask who you should speak with about the terms of the offer.
3) Make a list of everything and anything you want/need to do the job. If you don't ask for it, they probably won't offer it. If you don't ask NOW, you may never have another chance. Your wish list might be extensive. If it isn't, you probably haven't thought about it long enough. There is ALWAYS something else you can request. You might want to include the following in your "wish list":
* Salary -- this will typically be at the top of the list. This is usually what you will want to negotiate for the hardest.
* Start-up funds for research
* Computer equipment and software-- find out what they are initially offering you in terms of a computer. Sometimes what is offered is woefully inadequate. Find out about processor speed and memory (they may or may not be able to give you specifics). Don't forget about peripherals -- do you want a flat screen monitor? Extra hard drive? Flash drive? Laser printer? Find out what software the school already has that would be available to you and negotiate for anything they don't have that you need/want (SPSS, SAS, qualitative data analysis software, access to datasets -- do they belong to ICPSR? etc.)
* Research and/or teaching assistants
* Travel money -- for conference presentations and attendance, and for research.
* Course reduction -- this is something that institutions that don't have much leeway in the budget can sometimes more readily offer (but they probably won't offer unless you ask). You can ask for a permanent course reduction or a course reduction for the first year or two.
* Start date -- it IS sometimes possible to negotiate to start midyear instead of fall semester or to delay the start date for up to a year.
* Spousal hires
* Office space/lab space and furniture -- if your research involves content analysis of media coverage, you might request a television and cable service; if you analyze film, you might want a DVD and VCR player; if you do historical esearch, you might ask for a microfilm reader, etc.
* Books, journal subscriptions, professional association fees, library resources (anything you can get the department or college to pay for is something you don't have to pay for).
* Money for publication costs (photo permissions, submission fees, etc.).
* Courses -- what courses do they want you to teach? What courses do YOU want to teach? Especially for newer teachers, you want to keep the number of courses you have to prepare each semester to a minimum. So, especially if you were not able to negotiate a course reduction, you might try hard to negotiate teaching multiple sections of the same course.
* Teaching schedule -- is this already set or would you have some say for your first semester? How is this worked out for future semesters?
* Summer teaching you could ask FOR summer teaching or perhaps to GET OUT of it.
* Summer salary -- you might request that internal summer research grants be guaranteed for X number of years.
* Health insurance -- may not be negotiable, but it is sometimes possible to negotiate coverage for a domestic partner, or other special circumstance.
* Retirement benefits institutions may require a full year or two of employment before they begin to contribute to a retirement plan. It may be possible to negotiate for a reduction in the waiting period.
* Moving expenses if you live locally and do not need moving expenses, you might use this to negotiate for something else.
* Signing bonus -- while more common outside of academia, people HAVE gotten these when they've asked. Some pay cycles are such that a first pay check may not be issued until a month or more after you begin working. Especially for people fresh out of graduate school, a signing bonus may hold you over until that first pay check arrives.
* Time towards tenure -- can time worked elsewhere count towards tenure at the new institution? But also consider if it is wise to count previous time given this institution's tenure requirements. Typically time needs to be negotiated NOW, rather than after you're on campus.
* Publications -- will publications count for tenure if they came out before taking this job? Sometimes the answer will be yes, sometimes no - depending on the school. So this may or may not be a negotiable point.
4) Do your research. Ideally, you do this both before and immediately after the interview so you are prepared when you receive the offer. The Chronicle of Higher education and Academe (published by AAUP -- American Association of University Professors) both publish salary reports for specific schools. Find them online and read them so you know what others at this school and at similar schools have been getting in recent years in terms of salary. If the school is unionized, the union will typically publish very specific information on salaries. If that information is available, you can know how high the institution can go with a starting salary before they get into salary compression issues.
5) Rank order your wish list and start your negotiations at the top (again, usually salary). Once you get to the point where you don't think they can or will budge on salary, or if they tell you they will check into it further, then and only then should you move to the next item.
Some strategies for negotiating salary include:
"The initial offer included a starting salary of XX, but I understand that other people with comparable experience have started at YYY."
"As you know, I bring considerable teaching/research/publication
experience to this position - X years of full-time teaching. Based on this considerable experience I think a starting salary of XXX would be more appropriate."
6) When you move on to another negotiating point, use previous failed negotiation points to bolster your argument. This recognizes a Dean's limitations in what she or he can offer and provides alternatives.
"I understand that you cannot increase my starting salary beyond XXX, therefore I would like YYY included in my starting package."
"Given my considerable [experience, publication record, etc. - fill in as appropriate] and the limitations you face in raising my starting salary, I would like to see XXX included as well."
7) Ask for a signing bonus only AFTER you've negotiated salary and moving expenses. Sometimes if you can't get moving expenses, you can ask for a signing bonus to make up for it:
"I understand that state regulations prevent you from covering my moving expenses, however, a signing bonus would go a long way to help defray some of the personal costs of moving from a different state."
BUT - always settle salary before even mentioning signing bonuses. It is extremely important to get the salary as high as you can because any pay raises will typically be calculated as a percentage of your salary.
Since signing bonuses are not salary, they will not add to your base pay.
8) Talk to other faculty in the department and to the chair to get a sense of what other items you could and should ask for. You might not realize that start-up funds for research are common at the hiring institution. Or you might assume that you will receive a computer and printer and not realize these items need to be negotiated.
* *
9) So you've received two offers. Great! Figure out which offer you'd rather accept and then use the second offer to negotiate for a higher offer from your first choice institution. This can be tricky and you need to be up front that you have another attractive offer from school #2, but if the terms are right, you'd prefer to come to school #1. Most Deans will take the bait.
Some other things to consider:
* Find out what the raise structure at this institution is like and how it works. Once your salary negotiations are complete, it is helpful to know how to potentially increase that salary in the future. If their raise structure is abysmal, it might be worth taking a third stab at negotiating salary, OR it might lead you to reconsider the offer.
* Don't over look the important question - Do you really want to take the job? If so, then maybe if you don't get everything you ask for in the negotiations it won't matter too much. But just because you know you want to take the job doesn't mean you shouldn't
negotiate for a better offer. On the other hand, if you KNOW you don't want the job, maybe you don't want to waste your time or theirs negotiating.
If you have been offered an administrative position, there are some additional things that can be negotiated. In this case, you will be negotiating both for yourself and for the unit (department or college).
1) At the personal level, all of the above mentioned negotiating points apply. In addition, administrators are typically expected to continue to produce scholarly work, yet their time to devote to scholarly pursuits is often quite limited by administrative duties. Negotiate for the resources you need to maintain your scholarly work: research funds, travel funds, research assistance, course reductions, research leave, sabbatical leave, office staff, etc. Aim high in salary negotiation. Call around and see what people at the same kinds of institutions are making and ask for the very top. Some administrative positions are on a 9 month contract, yet expect 12 months of work. With this in mind, you might try to negotiate summer salary.
2) For the unit, hiring an external administrator is the one opportunity for a department or college to increase its resources. This is really important. Ask for a program development fund that significantly increases your operating budget for several years. Also, try to negotiate for as many future new positions as you can. You might also consider negotiating for the unit: additional teaching and research
assistants; additional office space; additional travel money; additional funds for something like a colloquium series. You can point out that these things will increase the productivity and visibility of the members of your department/college. Increased visibility along with the ability to bring nationally and internationally renowned speakers to campus will enhance the reputation of the University.
Get everything in writing in your contract. And then, beware, there will always be the caveat "giving funding availability" and be ready to lose some of what you are promised because of that phrase.
Don't be intimidated by the negotiation process. It is expected that you will negotiate and the worst that can happen is they say no; they're not going to rescind the offer. So, good luck and happy negotiating!
CAVEAT to all professional advice: Always check with your departmental colleagues, chair, dean, etc. to find out what the norms and expectations are in your institution. And consult with your professional mentors to determine what is most appropriate in your specific situation.
I hope this helps! Stay tuned for next month's question on commuter relationships.
-- Jane
I'm a new poster here and am interested to know what kinds of starting salaries people are negotiating or hearing about at different types of schools. I'm in the process of negotiating now and wonder what the norm is at R1 schools and smaller public comprehensive teaching universities. Thanks.
~Rae
my friend was offered 61, countered with 65, and wound up with 64. that seemed pretty good to me, but i dunno.
I think it depends on more than the type of school and rank of job - also a lot on location in the country (NYC v. Nebraska, e.g.). Look at earlier posts suggesting sources for salary information, notably the Chronicle.
Claude
Dear 7:18,
you have revolutionized this message board by posting some specific and concrete information that is VERY useful. Hopefully others will follow suit. Thank you.
The top offers are at 80k, possibly a little higher. Top R1 schools should start at low to mid 70's and be willing to go up from there if you have more than one offer.
I have heard many places (and not the bottom) just a few years ago were offering high 40s-low 50s, and the top R1s were offering 60s. I think it's gone up about 10 since then across the board, so that now an offer in the 50s is more standard, 60s is very good and more likely in places with higher costs of living, and higher than that would only come in the very top places or for those being hired as associates.
BUT I don't think the rumor mill is the best source for this info. I came right out and asked a few people I know well, who've been hired in the past few years. And I checked the Chronicle for salary information. That's your best, most reliable source for this kind of information, in my opinion.
Claude
Thanks for the replies. Claude, of course you're right about it not being the most reliable source of info and I agree that asking people is probably the best way find out. But the other salary sources are generally averages--not really what people are coming out at this year. And surely salaries are good gossip fodder :)
So thanks for the ranges. And just to add to the salary rumor mill: I had offers across the range from $50,000 to $66,000 in a city with exceptionally high cost of living. Ended up accepting R1 offer @ $60,000. ~Rae
My friend just accepted at a private R1 (med-high cost of living) for $70K.
Hermia
Claude, Are you serious? This wiki is not the most reliable source of information? I'm screwed.
Congrats Rae!
Claude
I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but the offer you usually receive is for a 9 month contract. I was advised that in this case, it is worth trying to negotiate summer funding without work obligations. Some universities may not have this option (if they don’t have summer courses) but most R1 Universities may have flexibility here where they don’t on the 9 month contract. In my negotiation process this year, I was offered a 9 month salary in the mid-50s at an R1 located in a place with low cost of living. In order to increase my overall yearly salary I negotiated 3 summer ninths (1 summer month for the next three summers). This increased my salary to 60k. At R1s where you may be expected to eventually secure external funding, so it is important to factor in trying to obtain grants to continue to supplement that initial amount, since significant raises rarely come before promotion from assistant to associate professor. I hope this helps.
Re: salaries
I've gotten an offer from a state LAC that I'm in the process of negotiating now. They offered high-40s, I countered and they say they can't (won't?) budge (citing union restrictions). However, they're able to be more generous with non-salary items, so it's an acceptable offer for me (for salary and other reasons).
FWIW: According to the ASA data on sociology faculty salaries 2005/2006, the average new Assistant Professor at a private institution is earning $48,702, and the average new Asst. Prof. at a public institution is earning $46,758. (Source: www.asanet.org, look under "Research and Stats" and then "Profession Trend Data" in the Members section) I'm at an R1 as a graduate student, so perhaps my expectations were out of whack. Ah, stratification.
Good luck, and bargain hard. ;)
Zen
I wonder how salaries in public administration compare to those in sociology. Any ideas?
Is anyone in the position of being #2 and waiting for #1 to accept or turn down the position? Does anyone get a sense of how frequently #2s are extended TT offers? For 5 weeks, I've been waiting to see if #1 will turn down or accept the position. Apparently, hu is in the process of renegotiating perquisites and salary. How much longer can this go on? If anyone can shed light on how much longer the agony might last, I'd appreciate it. Being #2 sucks.
Trixie
oh Trixie, how nice to commiserate! i too am #2, have also been waiting many, many weeks for the #1 to decide. i was told by the chair that this can go on and on all the way through February (sigh!) for positions that were offerred last year in November/December (even longer for positions offerred in January, etc.)
You're absolutely right: being #2 sucks -- and waiting for #1 is sheer agony...
this is just a hunch, but my hypothesis is that relatively few #2s get the job. I don't think the distribution of offers is that skewed--sure, there are a lot of candidates with no offers, but I don't think there are any candidates with 10 offers. Sociology doesn't seem to be that great at recognizing stars, and hiring is also very fragmented by subject matter (as opposed to open searches). I'd bet that the vast majority of candidates take their first offer.
but i hope for your sake that i'm wrong, trixie.
I was #2 at two places and got an offer at one and didn't on the other. My sense is that once the #1 candidate begins serious negotiating, you're less likely to get the job.
1) I was a second choice at an R1 and got an offer -- so it certainly happens -- and I waited about 2 1/2 weeks for #1 to decide.
2) The offer was upper $50s, I negotiated to low 60s. (Lower cost of living area.) A friend got a very similar offer at a similarly ranked school, but she's going to be in a much higher cost-of-living area.
Just a couple more data points.
The vignettes do help. When I learned that I was #2, I found out that #1 already has a position somewhere else. (I'm ABD, whereas #2 already has a PhD.) I have other campus and phone interviews lined up, but I really liked this place. The department has been extraordinarily thoughtful in keeping up to date about the process. *Sigh*
Trixie
I know one place where #1 and #2 turned it down, b/c they did have multiple offers. It happens more than you think. I know a #4 who got a job.
That said, I agree when negotiating begins that the person negotiating will probably end up taking the job. Most don't negotiate without strong intentions of eventually accepting an offer.
Claude
Anyone know anything about the Spring job market? I keep hearing that more jobs will open up & that many people do get jobs in the Spring-- is this true?
seems true to me: i've been called for interviews by two places in just january.
If an offer is declined by the 1st choice candidate, how soon do search committees extend the offer to the 2nd choice? Any thoughts at all are greatly appreciated! Going a little crazy here...
It depends. Some times they never call the 2nd person. Some times they call it immediatly, at least to inform him/her informally about the status of their candidacy, some times they have to go through internal formalities until they call the 2nd person and that might take anywhere from 48 hours to 2 weeks depending on the school.
Have you checked with them at all? How do you know the first candidate declined?
I'm going by the wiki. I already knew that I did not get the first offer.
On Sociology "not recognizing its stars" - I am not so sure I agree. For the past 3 years (including 2006-07) at least there have been at least one candidate in each year with upwards of five offers.
In my experience, often departments do not go through the (often contentious) process of choosing a 2nd choice when they choose their 1st choice. Rather, if their 1st choice turns them down, they then have to reconvene everyone and make a decision. So, it could take a while.
That's good to know...anyone else just waiting to hear right now? I've never checked my email/phone/mail so much in my life!
I have no way of knowing if I'm #2 or not, and I doubt the department knows I know their #1 turned them down. However, since my interview, I've updated my cv with a pub. Should I resend it to the chair? Wait to see if they contact me? How would I word that anyway--"just in case, here is an updated cv"? Also, I have another interview scheduled; is that something I should mention?
Thanks to all of you with any input/ideas!
If you have an updated CV that reflects a significant new publication, I would send it to the chair, but I wouldn't bother informing the chair of your interview. I don't think that will make the process go any faster. If you have an offer -- that's another story. Also, to reiterate what has already been said, just because you haven't heard does not mean that you are out of the running. These search are complex and can often take weeks (or months) to sort through. In the end, it doesn't matter where you rank in the list of candidates, you either are offered the job or not.
i second that opinion--send them the updated CV, but don't bother mentioning interviews, just offers.
Re: being 2nd and notifying other schools about interviews/offers
A while ago, I complained about the agony of being #2. I had written off the possibility that I might be offered the job, and yesterday, that wondrous thing occurred. It has remained my dream job, after I have gone through a few campus interviews and many phone interviews.
I would only notify schools where you've already had an on-campus interview that you have an offer elsewhere only if you really want the job that hasn't been offered. If you like the job you've currently been offered and wouldn't accept the second position under any circumstances, then what's the point in telling the second place about the offer? Getting into a bidding war may unnecessarily aggravate your future colleagues. I'm in this position, and there's no way I would accept the second job, even though it's the same type of appointment and similarly ranked R1.
Trixie
P.S. Where's Marx? I wonder how things have turned out for hu with respect to the whole interviewing for out-of-soc jobs.
Trixie, you give me hope! This is my dream job as well. Congrats on your new job!! Regarding interviewing for non-soc jobs, I have had on-campus and phone interviews, but no luck in offers yet. I think they are curious as to why I think I fit their positions, but perhaps I'm not so good at answering that question...maybe Marx has had more luck, though!
I am still thinking about sending my cv; I got an email from the chair about a week ago that they had offered the job to someone else but were "very impressed" by my interview. Since s/he has not contacted me again to tell me that person turned them down, it seems weird to email the chair my cv out-of-the-blue.
Anyway, I post on here fairly often, so from now on, I'm signing my posts...
Lindsey
Joint TT appointments: Has taken or contemplated taking a joint TT appointment (Sociology and another discipline like Women's Studies, African American Studies, Latin American Studies)? Do you have any advice on negotiating in this situation?
Trixie, congrats! That's great news.
Kyle
Marx here...
Congrats, Trixie! I recently received an offer from my top choice school (an R1 out-of-soc department) in the middle of an on-campus interview. I decided to tell the interviewing department's chair about it partly to increase my desirability index and partly to try speed up the process. I doubt they would give me a better offer but you never know and I hope to use this as a bargaining chip at both places. This is the only time to be smart about your base salary and related goodies, so you should take leverage of all you have. It is of course easier when you negotiate with the dean and not the department chair, a future colleague. So even though it is completely clear for you that you will not accept your second choice offer if it comes in eventually, why not play around in the limited time frame (cc. 2 weeks) you have? It is important not to seem like a push-over, but without getting into a bidding war. It is a delicate balance and you may be able to go around it by emailing faculty saying how excited you are about the offer.
I am a bit torn because I do see myself in a sociology position in the long-run. Any thoughts on how to negotiate a courtesy appointment with soc? Or is it possible to push for a joint appointment if it was not in the original job ad?
Congrats, Marx!! It's great to read about your good news. In my Sociology program where I'm ABD, faculty meet to approve "secondary" appointments for sociologists in other colleges (i.e. school of medicine, school of international studies, school of public health). Secondary appointments don't require service, and the department doesn't contribute to the faculty member's salary. If you're seeking a secondary (or joint) appointment, it may be a boon for the sociology department, especially if there's a shortage of faculty willing/available to work with grad students. I wouldn't try to push for a joint appointment because you might wind up with a double-the-service scenario (trying to please two masters). I would only pursue/accept a secondary appointment after I had spent some time on campus, getting a sense of how the sociology department there operates. I was offered a joint appointment (an actual 50/50 deal, not the bizarre 49/51 situation). I like being able to publish in two disciplines' journals, instead of limiting myself to sociological venues.
I understand your point, Marx, about not wanting to seem like a pushover. My advisor actually recommended against mentioning the second offer, unless I really was considering accepting the second one. This advice works for me. The offer (including generous start-up package) is very enticing.
Thanks to everyeone who has offered sound advice and shared their wisdom here. For those who are still interviewing: a few places are just beginning to finalize their short lists.
Trixie
Congrats to Marx and Trixie!
Re: Joint tenure-track appointments:
Someone at the place I accepted an offer has such an appointment and it initially appealed to me and I thought I'd try to negotiate the same. But then he explained to me that while it appealed to him intellectually, he is nervous about going through 2 tenure processes and is swamped with 2x the student advising and committee work. I spoke to one of my mentors about it and she warned me against it, for the very same reasons.
Find out about opportunities to teach and advise in a second department, but signing on for a joint appointment has no real benefit for you, and comes with plenty of hassles, headaches, and additional obstacles to tenure.
Claude
Re: joint appointments
Claude's right about the potential headache in going through the tenure process twice in two different departments. However, some joint appointments are structured from the beginning such that tenure would be jointly decided. I just wanted to clarify that not all joint appointments work the same. I second Claude's advice.
Trixie
Congratulations, Trixie and Marx!! Best of luck with the job negotiations.
ME
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